Lowndes County, GA – Full Encryption: Why?

[MTS2000des]

If the radio traffic is recorded ,and all one has to do is file an open records request to obtain said recordings, then why encrypt at all?
Regards,
DC

Open Records requests don't give a requestor everything, only what is allowed by a state's particular open records act. In Georgia, exclusions are but not limited to: CJIS information, PHI, any crime under active investigation, anything involving juveniles, etc.

 

[kc2asb]

Once upon a time, before satellite TV, the FCC had a rule that any radios approved by the FCC to receive radio broadcasts could AND were not permitted to scramble their transmissions.
law enforcement TV, radio, Etc. Then came satellite TV, where anyone with a 12-foot dish could pick up all kinds of TV for free—100s of channels. Then, the satellite TV companies figured out a way to make extra money, and they petitioned the FCC to let them encrypt their broadcasts, and so the age of encryption was born. They charge for commercial airtime and charge the public to watch their broadcast.

I would think this applied to broadcasts intended for the general public, which police/fire radio comms are not. Encryption of radio communications goes back a long way, almost to the dawn of wireless communications. There was voice inversion, and in the 1970's (?) Motorola came out with Digital Voice Protection. I don't believe there were any FCC rules that prohibited public safety agencies from encrypting their communications. Cost was likely the factor that kept many agencies from using it.

Satellite/cable companies fleecing the public is another topic altogether. I never dabbled in satellite reception, but I do remember reading the "Satellite Scene" column in Pop Comm magazine in the 80's/90's and there was quite a lot that could be received without paying a subscription fee.

With public safety, they will say it's for officer safety, BULL. If you look at the real crime data, the court records very few, maybe 1 in 1 million, if that many have used a scanner or cell phone to commit a crime.
It's all about hiding. Look at Washington, DC A couple of years ago, the metro fire department got a hazmat call to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. One of the FF's said the hazmat substance was cocaine over an open channel. So now any calls to the WH are over an encrypted channel. Please explain how that's for officer or even FF safety .

I'd like to see the stats on the use scanners/phone apps to aid in commission of a crime. Don't recall any such data being brought into one of these discussions.

 

[MTS2000des]

I'd like to see the stats on the use scanners/phone apps to aid in commission of a crime. Don't recall any such data being brought into one of these discussions.

This is a frequently mentioned sentiment. I don't think one will find any statistical data, not that it doesn't exist, but it often isn't recorded as such. For instance, in most states, use of a scanner/communication device during a crime would be criminal use of tools, and using NIBRS classifications, there are an endless number of criminal cases where data shows "electronic tools" being utilized to aid crime commission, if not now more than ever. However, one would haft to sift through incident/investigation documents, FI card, etc to find specific incidents where "scanners" or "scanner apps" are used.

At the end of the day, it happens and we know it. The Summer of Love (2020) here in Atlanta taught us that bad actors were listening and actively instructing the ANTIFA actors to go where APD was, almost in lock step with transmissions made- I know first hand. I was there. I saw it, heard it, felt it. I don't need NIBRS data to tell me that the information wasn't going into the wrong hands at the wrong time. Those who are making the decisions to encrypt were there too.

 

[kc2asb]

This is a frequently mentioned sentiment. I don't think one will find any statistical data, not that it doesn't exist, but it often isn't recorded as such. For instance, in most states, use of a scanner/communication device during a crime would be criminal use of tools, and using NIBRS classifications, there are an endless number of criminal cases where data shows "electronic tools" being utilized to aid crime commission, if not now more than ever. However, one would haft to sift through incident/investigation documents, FI card, etc to find specific incidents where "scanners" or "scanner apps" are used.

Interesting, thanks. Essentially, a monumental task. Even if the data were compiled, it likely would not have any influence on those making the decision.

At the end of the day, it happens and we know it. The Summer of Love (2020) here in Atlanta taught us that bad actors were listening and actively instructing the ANTIFA actors to go where APD was, almost in lock step with transmissions made- I know first hand. I was there. I saw it, heard it, felt it. I don't need NIBRS data to tell me that the information wasn't going into the wrong hands at the wrong time. Those who are making the decisions to encrypt were there too.

Here in the NY/NJ metro area, I was listening to the NYPD during that time and heard it all - the jamming, taunting, and it severely hindered LEO from doing their jobs. You could buy a $40 radio from Amazon and transmit on police/fire frequencies. This summer, the NYPD should complete their migration to P25E

 

[mmckenna]

I don't believe there were any FCC rules that prohibited public safety agencies from encrypting their communications. Cost was likely the factor that kept many agencies from using it.

There's not. It was a fabricated fact.
And this is one of the issues with the anti-encryption arguments. The people that are against it don't understand the technology or the reasons, but that doesn't stop them from saying things. I understand their passion, but that doesn't overrule the requirements for factual statements.

Satellite/cable companies fleecing the public is another topic altogether. I never dabbled in satellite reception, but I do remember reading the "Satellite Scene" column in Pop Comm magazine in the 80's/90's and there was quite a lot that could be received without paying a subscription fee.

Yes. And it completely ignores cable TV scrambling that was done for a long time before home satellite TV receivers were a thing.

I'd like to see the stats on the use scanners/phone apps to aid in commission of a crime. Don't recall any such data being brought into one of these discussions.

There isn't any.
What I know is what happens locally to me, and there's been several instances where the lack of encryption has resulted in problems. Those issues have lead to my agency, as well as others, to ask for encryption.

His made up facts about researching millions of court cases was, once again, 100% fabricated.

 

[ctiller]

I wonder if the decline of the hobby will lead to a decline in industry professionals. I'm sure a lot of those running these massive radio systems (not just public safety) got interested by listening on scanners and ham radio.

 

[mmckenna]

I wonder if the decline of the hobby will lead to a decline in industry professionals. I'm sure a lot of those running these massive radio systems (not just public safety) got interested by listening on scanners and ham radio.

That's an excellent question. I know many of us got started with CB, scanners, shortwave radios, etc. and then wandered into amateur radio, GMRS, etc.

But I doubt losing scanners alone will impact the industry.

Bigger issues:
Migration to making radio systems part of "IT", and not understanding that it's got some major differences.
Migration to LTE.
Ability for technicians to pass background checks.

 

[MTS2000des]

I wonder if the decline of the hobby will lead to a decline in industry professionals. I'm sure a lot of those running these massive radio systems (not just public safety) got interested by listening on scanners and ham radio.

Many of us started out like Sheriff Judd. A GE Multiband radio with coveted UHF tuning was my prized possession in 1983.
Back then, one had to work and have some technical prowess even though radio systems were all analog and primitive compared to today's systems. There was no internet streaming of anything and one generally kept to themselves what they heard on their radios or shared only with trusted friends.

We have bigger issues as Mmckenna said: lack of "RF" people let alone critical thinking technical people. Today's IT degreed professionals expect a 6 figure salary walking thru the door and wouldn't dare troubleshoot a mobile radio in a patrol car, let alone how to actually do it.
Lots of people with paper on the wall who can't even tie their shoes without drooling over themselves or having to whip out their electronic fentanyl (quoting our FCC chairman) to tell them how.

 

[KE4ZNR]

That's an excellent question. I know many of us got started with CB, scanners, shortwave radios, etc. and then wandered into amateur radio, GMRS, etc.

But I doubt losing scanners alone will impact the industry.

Bigger issues:
Migration to making radio systems part of "IT", and not understanding that it's got some major differences.
Migration to LTE.
Ability for technicians to pass background checks.

Yep. We are trying to fill a spot in my shop from someone who retired after 32+ years and we run into the above.
Our industry is indeed a niche industry and not for everyone (nor can be done by everyone). You have to be both a radio & I.T. geek if you want a Radio Systems Engineer job. Just being either/or will not cut it.
We also require a GROL/FCC License as a basic barrier to entry so there is that as well.

 

[ctiller]

Eventually we will all be sitting around watching netflix all day as AI does all of our jobs anyway I suppose

 

[ctiller]

Many of us started out like Sheriff Judd. A GE Multiband radio with coveted UHF tuning was my prized possession in 1983.
Back then, one had to work and have some technical prowess even though radio systems were all analog and primitive compared to today's systems. There was no internet streaming of anything and one generally kept to themselves what they heard on their radios or shared only with trusted friends.

We have bigger issues as Mmckenna said: lack of "RF" people let alone critical thinking technical people. Today's IT degreed professionals expect a 6 figure salary walking thru the door and wouldn't dare troubleshoot a mobile radio in a patrol car, let alone how to actually do it.
Lots of people with paper on the wall who can't even tie their shoes without drooling over themselves or having to whip out their electronic fentanyl (quoting our FCC chairman) to tell them how.

Yeah, as a kid I would have been in heaven to listen to ATC from almost any airport in the world along with almost any police agency in the US. It's funny how we have that now and the hobby is dying seemingly because of it. side note-i got scammed by an ad i saw in PopComm as a kid where someone in NYC would record NYPD or whatever you wanted for a few bucks and send a tape to you. Of course I never received it lol

 

[mmckenna]

Eventually we will all be sitting around watching netflix all day as AI does all of our jobs anyway I suppose

AI can't climb towers, install connectors, or handle disaster recovery.

AI is fine for the right applications, but the people that will be successful in 30 years are the same ones that are now: The trades.

Like was said above, random dude with IT certificate means nothing to me, they are a dime a dozen and we get 50 that will apply to every single job we post. The applications that stand out are the ones where the guy knows not only 2 way radio and IT, but can troubleshoot a broken air conditioner, can fix a telephone circuit, will dig a trench if that's what's needed, can figure out why the generator didn't start, can get a truck in to a remote radio site without getting lost, won't start whining when it gets cold/rainy, and will figure out how to get the site back on line.

Add in GROL, can pass a background check, and being reliable.

 

[MTS2000des]

It isn't just radio systems folks, add mechanics, HVAC, plumbing, electrician- skilled trades people are dwindling away. Sure, most of what we buy now is leased to us and we "enjoy a license to use" until the 3-5 year lifespan was reached, but things like plumbing, electrical work, roofers, construction can never be replaced by turd AI.

The problem is deeper than just finding good RF techs as we aren't making humans with both critical thinking skills (gets deleted when human raised on screens vs free range) and the drive to actually do physical work. The only exercise today's new humans want to engage in is swiping a screen.

 

[MTS2000des]

Eventually we will all be sitting around watching netflix all day as AI does all of our jobs anyway I suppose

That is exactly what the owners want. Good obedient workers.

 

[ctiller]

I agree with you all on that-sorry for the thread drift-just really curious how this will affect the future

 

[kayn1n32008]

Because they can.

Seriously, it's a done deal.

The right answer.

 

[DanRollman]

Many of us started out like Sheriff Judd.

That's funny. Thanks for posting that. That was literally me at *8* years old in Arizona. At 12 years old I'd already published a frequency directory for others (Southwest Frequency Directory), printed and bound a few hundred copies at an office supply store using an advance on my allowance, and resold them to the local radio and electronic supply stores. Within a few years I expanded to Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and the Pacific Northwest. When Gene Hughes of Police Call fame stopped publishing his more detailed Southern California Edition, I expanded there too. When I moved to Atlanta in 2002 to attend law school at Emory, I published the Atlanta Frequency Directory.

This little 'hobby business' literally kept me from needing a "real job" from middle school through graduate school. I even won a national competition in DECA in high school related to a radio-related business idea. All because at 8 years old my parents bought me a top-of-the-line Pro-38, which had just hit the market, so that I could hear where the fire trucks leaving the station one block from our house were going. So I can definitely relate to Sheriff Judd's story.

But like my printed scanner directory business - superseded by Lindsay Blanton's excellent transition of trunkedradio.net into radioreference.com - the hobby of monitoring public safety communications continues its overall decline. There have been dips and surges, but the overall trend line has been decline for decades. Dips happened as key areas moved to trunking, and then digital, before consumer grade devices existed for monitoring those technologies, and of course as key areas move to encryption. Surges happened when programmable scanners arrived, and when the "TrunkTracker" was released, and then when the BC250D and its successors for monitoring P25 digital came out. Still, the long trend line of the scanner hobby is "down and to the right". And given that there cannot and will not be a consumer-grade "solution" for the hobbyist to overcome encryption, the way there was a solution to the use of more channels, trunking, and digital formats to overcome previous 'dips', there is no possible way that trend line moves in any other direction.

It's just reality man. I got over having to give up the "hobby business" I'd run for nearly 30 years and learned so much and made so many great relationships through. I got over agencies I enjoy monitoring going encrypted, and moved on to other agencies. And I'll get over it when there aren't any public safety agencies of interest to me left "in the clear". Time and technology march on.

 

[DanRollman]

AI can't climb towers, install connectors, or handle disaster recovery.

AI is fine for the right applications, but the people that will be successful in 30 years are the same ones that are now: The trades.

Bingo. That's why I love supporting the mikeroweWORKS Foundation and am thrilled that at least one of my kids wants to be a welder rather than a graduate-degreed office worker.

 

[jrothwell]

anyone from Boston who officially want to chime in

Boston is using channel 8 for all requests like this, they did not include this in their online feed.

 

[tosh]

Because they can.

Seriously, it's a done deal. Encryption is coming on strong in this state. Find something else to listen to. As a former first responder, I am sure you concur radio systems are for the safety and security of the users, not for entertainment for the general public.

We could say since the "summer of love" 5 years ago, much is changing in this state regarding comsec. Get used to it. There is still much more to monitor like aircraft, railroads, private businesses, amateur radio. Decisions to encrypt are usually done by command staff after discussions at the local, county and state level. COMSEC is a major topic of discussion these days and it is easy and cost effective to achieve.

NYCPD is moving to full time AES encryption so it may have been foreign in the past but not in 2025. It's happening everywhere not just in Georgia.

That 4th sentence is like a mantra now.