Make an antenna with RG-58 for a Repeater

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prcguy

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If you were in So Cal I could help setting up your repeater (I used to own a commercial repeater business) and I have a bunch of lengths of Andrew Heliax, duplexers, cavaties, Isolators and all the equipment to align it.

You can usually find used Heliax with connectors installed cheap at ham radio swap meets and also used commercial UHF antennas that will cover most of the amateur band.
prcguy
 

mm

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First you mention your on a budget but then your next plan is to go out and buy hardline and an amplifier which cost a lot more than what you already have not to mention you will probably need a new power supply for the amplifier which will most likely not help out a bit except for reduce your isolation and increase your frustration level.

Also what about an isolator on the transmitter output, do you have one, you'll need a LPF after the isolator and what about your cavities who is tuning the duplexer for you ?

If your doing it yourself then you need a good SA with tracking generator and remember that the cavities really need to be fine tuned with everything connected and well grounded, and you can't get away with any type of crap cable, even for the in shack interconnecting cables.

You'll need a controller with proper ID and what about lightning protection, proper grounding at the antenna and cabling, the use of non NICKLE plated connectors, do you know about these important aspects of repeaters ?.

Without any of these being considered then your just asking for PIM problems and/or constant noise getting into your system which comes back to your frustration level going through the roof.

Before you go any further stop and think about spending any more money to put up a repeater that will most likely only work a mile or 2, I have seen to many backyard repeaters that turn into money pits and frustration.

Save your neighbors, wife, parents or whoever the constant swearing when your repeater doesn't work and your antenna keeps falling down and do something sensible like joining a local radio club and volunteer to help/be mentored on their local repeater, this way you'll learn what's involved on keeping one on the air.

Which brings up another point that others are trying to get across to you, I hope you aren't expecting to simply put it on the air and then not have to work on it after that because I guarantee that you'll be constantly working and maintaining it to the point where it isn't fun anymore, after about the first week you'll want to tear it down and toss it all in the garbage.

If you have the patience and your wife or parents don't kill you from constantly going up and down on the roof to fix the antenna or slamming the door when going from the antenna to the duplexer room to tweak the cavities and the constant cussing because the stupid repeater doesn't work or it keeps blowing squelch, then maybe you'll learn something but I'd really suggest stopping before you waist any more time and money.

Been there, done it with a SO 155 MHz rptr, a ham 900 rptr, a ham UHF 440 rptr and a ham 6 meter repeater take my word for it, it isn't fun doing it alone.

Mike
 

CalebATC

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Sounds to me like you need LOTS of guidance! You should atleast know that RG-58 will just suck at UHF frequencies... especially with 200 feet of it!

If repeaters are not built by a experienced person, or a professional, they can require a lot of maintenance! Our repeater usually requires a five year "tune up" but, a retired professional is the one who built it for us, and it works great. Not to mention we just spent over $500 fixing it with new coax, connectors, antennas, and mounts.

I would recommend you halting your project for now, until you waste more money on things that aren't going to preform as thought. I would recommend finding a good buddy who can partner in with you on the building of the repeater. And, if your one of those who just studied the questions for the test, I would highly reccomend reading up on antennas and coax.

Make sure you have it coordinated, since it seems like you are in a busy area. Also, I would say there is no use to build the repeater unless you know a few people that are going to use it, and it isn't going to be a dead machine you invested hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars in!
 

kayn1n32008

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once i get it can i use RG58 for antenna and that for the feedline?

If you can, try and aquire an antenna similar to a Sinclair 310-c2, 310-c4, or 310-c8 type of antenna. making a 1/2wave or 1/4wave antenna out of RG-58 coax is going to have very dissapointing performance.

The antenna/feedline quality is so important.

Using the 100' of RG-58 as an example, if you put 50w into the feed line (not into the duplexer you will need to put 60-80w into the duplexer to get 50 out) and you get 5w-ish at the antenna. If you want to 'make-up' that loss you are going to need more than 9db of gain to get 50w of ERP. Your RG-58 antenna is giving you 0db of gain.

If you use 100' of LDF4-50A, and Put 50w in to the feedline, you will get about 36w to the antenna. With 9db of gain you are going to have an ERP of over 250w.


Feedline and antenna is so very important to you repeaters performance.

Where I live there are a few repeaters that I am able to use when I am more than 100Km away.

There is one Uhf Air Ambulance repeater at 422.XXXMhz that I can hear 105km away from its location and on my end I have a ham dualband antenna on a magmount.
 
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What is keeping it at only a few miles? If I get a good antenna i was going to use a repeater Amplifier running like 50 watts, Then ill get like 45 watts hopefully through the antenna after loss, and get a preamp to put on the reciever. My real plan was to put up a repeater that will go far as like 5 Miles.1 is not to bad for spending $350 on the setup

If it all works out, I will get It coordinated from the FCC. I already have a licence.

Visit The KB1VSP Repeater
 
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You ask for advice and you get lots of excellent suggestions that folks have gained from actually building both amateur and commercial repeaters. From your comments it appearent you need to be paying attention or success will continue to evade you.
 
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Great Info

Im paying attention, I am only 15 years old. got my ham liscence like 4 months ago and I just want to build a repeater. I undestand it will be work. Me and my friend are seting it up. Were going to use it as he also has a liscence. I understand that i need patients.
 
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You ask for advice and you get lots of excellent suggestions that folks have gained from actually building both amateur and commercial repeaters. From your comments it appearent you need to be paying attention or success will continue to evade you.

Yes, Befor I just thought if i was using 25 watts, i can run feedlin to an antenna and get 25 watts.

I have learned a great deal of things on this forum by asking questions. Thanks everyone for the great information and i now have saved time and money.
 
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If you can, try and aquire an antenna similar to a Sinclair 310-c2, 310-c4, or 310-c8 type of antenna. making a 1/2wave or 1/4wave antenna out of RG-58 coax is going to have very dissapointing performance.

The antenna/feedline quality is so important.

If you use 100' of LDF4-50A, and Put 50w in to the feedline, you will get about 36w to the antenna. With 9db of gain you are going to have an ERP of over 250w. QUOTE]

So if i use 100 feet of cable and a high gain antenna say i get that 250watts at the antenna, Does that mean that i can be heard more than a mile away? And Im only using 50ft of that cable so it should be even better?
 

RadioDaze

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Just a friendly observation: On your website, you have a 6 MB photo scaled to fit an 819 pixel high space. That's a huge amount of bandwidth, and a very slow download for many folks. I took the liberty just now of re-scaling it in Photoshop. I just emailed it to the address shown on your website.

P.S. This usually happens when the web design program is used to scale an image, instead of an external image editor.
 
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Just a friendly observation: On your website, you have a 6 MB photo scaled to fit an 819 pixel high space. That's a huge amount of bandwidth, and a very slow download for many folks. I took the liberty just now of re-scaling it in Photoshop. I just emailed it to the address shown on your website.

P.S. This usually happens when the web design program is used to scale an image, instead of an external image editor.

Yes i was having trouble with the scalling, But it has to be in a file instead of a picture because when i try to upload it, I have to paste it into Paint which just ruins what work you did to it. I dont have any editing programs anymore
 
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mm

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Were not trying to discourage you from learning, after all that's the spirit of ham radio.

Were trying to help you out to get started the correct way and believe me a poorly operating, possibly spurious repeater is a sure way to alienate yourself from local hams real fast.

I have seen it for the past 35 years where backyard systems interfere or frustrate other hams so much that the repeater owner gets a bad name and ends up dropping out of radio.

Back to your proposed design with an amplifier and a pre-amp now being added:

You may be heard several miles away with 250W or even 36 watts out of the cavities but with your setup nobody will be able to get back in to the repeater not to mention your duplexer may not like the extra power that your proposing.

250 watts ERP will just interfere with others in the adjacent towns without you being able to hear them complain simply because your receiver isn't working properly.

An amplifier and a pre-amp on a backyard repeater are just masks for an already improperly designed or poorly operating/tuned system, they are only going to make things worse.

All of the extra interconnecting cables connecting the RX and TX to the pre-amp and RF power amp are just more sources of interference getting in and out of the repeater if not made with the highest quality cables and connectors.

By the way, what's the power rating on your duplexer ? Is it one of the small 50 watt mobile duplexers ? If so then it could arc across even if your running 50 watts into a poorly matched/tuned antenna. and certainly if running 250 watts into a under-rated duplexer.

I think that the main point that people are trying to get across is that with your proposed setup the receive end is going to suffer more than the TX side, no one will be able to get in at a mile or less away with your proposed design.

Desense and local noise will most likely kill the receiver and without a good receiver it isn't a repeater as much as it's a noise generator/receiver.

Also with the cabling and other design equipment that you propose to use, your repeater has a very good possibility of interfering with other radios, no just in the ham bands but also outside of the ham bands.

I have seen this many times where the backyard repeater starts mixing and going spurious where the next thing you know your coming out on a non ham frequency which is not good as I'm sure your aware.


Mike
 
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Oh yes, I understand what you are saying. I was looking to make a repeater that would work in the local area like anywhere from 1-5Miles or so,,. Interfering with police or fire radios is BIG Trouble. Espically if someone gets hurt because of it. Not looking to do that

I have a 50Watt Mobile duplexer tuned by "a professional" for my 440 Frequencys. I was planning on keeping it low power like 25/50W and using a high gain antenna. a setup like that...?
 

mancow

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250 watts...wtf? I dont know of any commercial or ham repeaters in our county with anywhere near that power. You don't need that kind of power.

If you go that route you absolutely will not be able to skimp on anything. It will need to be top notch components from end to end.
 
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zz0468

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Im paying attention, I am only 15 years old. got my ham liscence like 4 months ago and I just want to build a repeater.

Please don't. Not yet. the world doesn't currently need another uncoordinated, poorly designed, and pooly operating repeater. The interference potential is great, and you appear to be going at it all wrong. Get some practical experience with repeater usage under your belt first. Learn more RF basics. There are some good books and better resources than RadioReference for learning about repeaters.

A new ham license is an excellent venue for antenna building. But you're jumping WAY to far ahead, based on your skill and knowledge level.
 
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So if i use 100 feet of cable and a high gain antenna say i get that "250watts" at the antenna, Does that mean that i can be heard more than a mile away? And Im only using 60ft of that cable so it should be even better?
 

zz0468

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So if i use 100 feet of cable and a high gain antenna say i get that "250watts" at the antenna, Does that mean that i can be heard more than a mile away? And Im only using 60ft of that cable so it should be even better?

"250 watts at the antenna" only means that the cable is delivering 250 watts to the connector at the end. What the antenna does with that 250 watts is a function of the antenna, not the cable. If the antenna turns that power into heat, or radiates it all straight into the ground, it's not going to be heard very far.
 
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"250 watts at the antenna" only means that the cable is delivering 250 watts to the connector at the end. What the antenna does with that 250 watts is a function of the antenna, not the cable. If the antenna turns that power into heat, or radiates it all straight into the ground, it's not going to be heard very far.

So what should I do? I am looking to get a high gain antenna and the LDF4-50A feedline and hook it into my 25 watt repeater. Then with high gain it will help to improve siginal and ERP?
 

RadioDaze

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Yes i was having trouble with the scalling, But it has to be in a file instead of a picture because when i try to upload it, I have to paste it into Paint which just ruins what work you did to it. I dont have any editing programs anymore

That's okay. It just took a couple of minutes. Not sure why it has to go into Paint... I don't know how the "Webs" site builder works. You should just be able to upload the file "repeater.png"
 
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