Make an antenna with RG-58 for a Repeater

Status
Not open for further replies.

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,996
Location
Sector 001

OCO

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
928
Location
Central Michigan
Victor - the next time you think about spending money on more equipment, spend it on an ARRL Handbook. You're only 25 miles or so from ARRL headquarters and love 'em or leave 'em, they publish a lot of good educational and technical information. I about wore out my dad's 1957 edition back in the day and over the years collected lots of their books at swapmeets. I know it's expensive if new, but the handbook contains infoprmation that you'll use all your career. I worked 40 years in information technology and kept a handbook on the shelf most of that time..If a new one is too spendy, look for somebody that's got an old one they'd part with.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
I just Read up about Antennas/Feed lines

OK, I have just finished reading the section on Antennas and feed lines from Repeater-Builder.com .

I am looking to use some RG-214 Coax to run from the Duplexer to the Transmitter and the receiver. Then run 60ft of LDF4-50A HELIAX Line to the top of my antenna tower. Then use some RG-214 to connect the Antenna to the HELIAX Line. For the antenna i haven't decided yet but I am looking for something with High gain.
I Have Mini UHF Connectors on the TX/RX Radios, BNC on the Duplexer and most likely the antenna will have "N" Connectors on it.

What type of connectors are best to use?
Does this sound like a good setup?
Suggestions?..
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,996
Location
Sector 001
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

centuryvrproductions said:
OK, I have just finished reading the section on Antennas and feed lines from Repeater-Builder.com .

I am looking to use some RG-214 Coax to run from the Duplexer to the Transmitter and the receiver. Then run 60ft of LDF4-50A HELIAX Line to the top of my antenna tower. Then use some RG-214 to connect the Antenna to the HELIAX Line. For the antenna i haven't decided yet but I am looking for something with High gain.
I Have Mini UHF Connectors on the TX/RX Radios, BNC on the Duplexer and most likely the antenna will have "N" Connectors on it.

What type of connectors are best to use?
Does this sound like a good setup?
Suggestions?..

Just remember SILVER is good, Nickle is bad. Spend the money on good connectors and good adaptors and save yourself a lot of grief down the road
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Just remember SILVER is good, Nickle is bad. Spend the money on good connectors and good adaptors and save yourself a lot of grief down the road

Yes I read about that, So BNC N and Mini UHF will all work fine? (as long as they are Not Nickel)

Any other input about that setup?

and do I have to Tune the antenna?
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,996
Location
Sector 001
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Try to get cables that have the correct connectors on them, less lossy than using adapters. If the antenna needs tuning then yes you will have to verify the VSWR, some antennas are very wide band, like the 310-C4, and may not need to be tuned. Always verify VSWR before putting it into service to ensure you don't harm your Transmitter
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
Just clarifying...

If I were to get the cable, say for the connection between the duplexer(BNC) and TX/RX Radios (mini UHF). I will have two RG-214 Cable with one end a BNC and one a MINI UHF, then for connecting the Feed Line (N) to the Duplexer (BNC), Have a BNC to N Adapter. Then another RG-214 With N on both ends to connect the antenna(N) to the Feed line(N) up at the tower.

Does that sound like it will have the least amount of loss?

Will a BNC connector fit onto the end of LDF4-50A Feed Line? Or i can use a short length of RG-214 with a N and BNC connector on each end to connect the Feed Line(N) to the Duplexer(BNC) so I can eliminate the Adapter (Assuming adapters have Greater loss than a cable with connectors)

As for the antenna, If I get one strictly for UHF or 440, does it still need tuning or it would improve siginal to tune it? If so, How is it done?
 
Last edited:

prcguy

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
16,741
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
I'm not sure if you"ll find mini UHF connectors for RG-214. For short runs between radio and duplexer, RG-142 is a good choice and many RG-58 connectors will fit this dual shielded silver plated Teflon coax.


OK, I have just finished reading the section on Antennas and feed lines from Repeater-Builder.com .

I am looking to use some RG-214 Coax to run from the Duplexer to the Transmitter and the receiver. Then run 60ft of LDF4-50A HELIAX Line to the top of my antenna tower. Then use some RG-214 to connect the Antenna to the HELIAX Line. For the antenna i haven't decided yet but I am looking for something with High gain.
I Have Mini UHF Connectors on the TX/RX Radios, BNC on the Duplexer and most likely the antenna will have "N" Connectors on it.

What type of connectors are best to use?
Does this sound like a good setup?
Suggestions?..
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
I'm not sure if you"ll find mini UHF connectors for RG-214. For short runs between radio and duplexer, RG-142 is a good choice and many RG-58 connectors will fit this dual shielded silver plated Teflon coax.

Ya I figured that some connecters wont fit that.( Mini UHF is commonly in the size of RG-58 or RG-6 at like Radioshack)

Did you see the other Post?

Any comments on that? thats what im looking to use
 
Last edited:

CalebATC

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
992
Location
Blairsville, Georgia
Tuning will depend on the antenna type, if it is a 440MHz antenna, it will probably have a 1.5 or so at the edges of the bands, but if your in the middle somewhere, it should be pretty good. I would still reccomend borrowing a SWR meter from someone and tuning it.

Most tuning on VHF and UHF base antennas is done by unscrewing a couple screws and sliding the radiator in, and out depending on where your at in the band.

Some antennas are better than others, but I would still go ahead and tune it when you get some time. It doesn't have to be a #1 priority while doing the low-power ops, but for best performance and not risking damaging your radio.
 

prcguy

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
16,741
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
Not sure what other post your referring to but if your asking about RG-214 in general its acceptable for short jumpers at UHF. RG-214 is not considered a low loss cable these days but you can easily install connectors at home with no special tools.

I also like using short 1/4" Heliax jumpers between repeater components and you can usually get pre-made RG-142 or Heliax jumpers on Ebay cheap.

Nickel plated connectors were mentioned to be avoided and technically they can create IMD but its at extremely low levels and rarely can be measured or noticed on a repeater. Going back 30 years most duplexers were provided with RG-214 interconnect cables with silver plated connectors and now most duplexers are supplied from the factory with crimp style nickel plated connectors on RG-142.
prcguy




Ya I figured that some connecters wont fit that.( Mini UHF is commonly in the size of RG-58 or RG-6 at like Radioshack)

Did you see the other Post?

Any comments on that? thats what im looking to use
 

mancow

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
6,908
Location
N.E. Kansas
Never said you said that. :D

I'm just making the observations that 250 is pretty much overkill for most applications. Mine is running 75 and I'm covering several counties.


Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)



I never said that. My comment was about ERP. 36w x 9db gain = 288w ERP. I was showing our young ham what the difference between RG-58 and low loss hardline.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
If I were to get the cable, say for the connection between the duplexer(BNC) and TX/RX Radios (mini UHF). I will have two RG-214 Cable with one end a BNC and one a MINI UHF, then for connecting the Feed Line (N) to the Duplexer (BNC), Have a BNC to N Adapter. Then another RG-214 With N on both ends to connect the antenna(N) to the Feed line(N) up at the tower.

Does that sound like it will have the least amount of loss?

Will a BNC connector fit onto the end of LDF4-50A Feed Line? Or i can use a short length of RG-214 with a N and BNC connector on each end to connect the Feed Line(N) to the Duplexer(BNC) so I can eliminate the Adapter (Assuming adapters have Greater loss than a cable with connectors)

As for the antenna, If I get one strictly for UHF or 440, does it still need tuning or it would improve siginal to tune it? If so, How is it done?

I was just Making sure that this setup would not have any problems. So this is what I am going to use.

Is RG-58 usable for jumpers or does it still have too much loss? I have 200ft of it laying around
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,996
Location
Sector 001
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

No, do not use it for jumpers, the shielding is not adequate.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

No, do not use it for jumpers, the shielding is not adequate.

Ya, I figured. So i will go with RG-214 for jumpers
 

CalebATC

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
992
Location
Blairsville, Georgia
I was just Making sure that this setup would not have any problems. So this is what I am going to use.

Is RG-58 usable for jumpers or does it still have too much loss? I have 200ft of it laying around

For quality wise, I would still use the repeater cable. RG-58 can only handle about 80 watts on 440 MHz.

But as long as you have good, quality connectors, and don't go over the max power, you should be good to go :)
 

mancow

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
6,908
Location
N.E. Kansas
No, as said, the shielding isn't adequate. Some of that stuff looks like a screen door mesh once you pull the insulation back. You need good quality stuff for jumpers.


For quality wise, I would still use the repeater cable. RG-58 can only handle about 80 watts on 440 MHz.

But as long as you have good, quality connectors, and don't go over the max power, you should be good to go :)
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,996
Location
Sector 001
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

I would do as prcguy suggested and get some RG-142 and use trhat for your jumpers, double shielded will keep the RF where it is supposed to be and will take mini-Uhf, BNC, and N connectors and eliminate the need for adaptors. When you get the LDF harline make sure to get a male for commection to the jumper between the output of your duplexer and LDF cable. DO NOT use RG-58 ffor your jumpers it will cause nothing but grief and in the end you will be swapping it out. There is no real point to using RG-214 because you will have to use adaptors due to not being able get BNC, mimi-UHF connectors for that cable.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
211
Calculations

So for the Feedline, I calculated a 60ft lenth at 444Mhz has a loss of 0.864db

For the Jumpers (duplexer to Radios, Duplexer to Feedline and Feedline to Antenna) I calculated
total loss from say 6ft of RG-142B is 0.518db

Now say i get a antenna with say 5db gain, Sounds like it will workl (If tuned...)



Calculated the information using this website: RF Transmission Line Loss Calculator
 

rescue161

KE4FHH
Database Admin
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
3,675
Location
Hubert, NC
As said before, RG142 is going to be your best bet. I used it on my first repeater. I still have two jumpers here for a mobile duplexer that had (of all things) SO-239 connectors on it, so I had to make two jumpers with Mini-UHF and PL-259 connectors.

MyDESRepeater.jpg


SpectraRepeaterController.jpg


Before I sold the repeater, I changed duplexers so I kept these jumpers. RG142 is very easy to work with and is shielded very well. RG58 - not so much. If you used RG58 for jumpers, just expect desence (receiver overload) and possible permanent damage to the receiver.

Just for reference, I used RG142 jumpers on a mobile duplexer with two Spectras. They were set up with a homemade controller that allowed the passage of encryption (DES - and no this was not a ham repeater, it was used by the military). I also used 50 feet of Andrews 1/2 inch hard-line and a DB Products DB-404 (406-420 Dipole array). The antenna was up at 25 feet (about 50 feet above sea level) and we had hand-held coverage of about 7-8 miles. We were about the highest point around as we were on the coast. The beaches (which were obviously lower than the repeater) had the best coverage.

DB-404RepeaterAntenna.jpg


As a side note, our range increased about 2 miles when the encryption was disabled as we were using straight DES, not DES-XL.

So unless you are very high, your coverage is not going to be anything of great value. Just remember, the higher you go, the more loss you'll experience. That goes for RF as well as monetary loss... :wink:
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top