Milwaukee OpenSky radio system fails

Status
Not open for further replies.

tencom

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2004
Messages
66
Chauffer6 If the PA system is so bad why did the State Police Just recently switch completely over to OPEN-SKY as announced by Radio Reference. If it was so Probematic would they have made the switch?. Here in Milwaukee I am confident any problems that remain, will be dealt with to the users
satisfaction, and hope you and others feel likewise as I think it will be a great tool to aid Law-Enforcement
and improve city services.
 

Citywide173

Member
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,168
Location
Attleboro, MA
My general guess on why these systems have been brought online while plagued with problems is cost. There is a common thread of these systems coming in WAY over budget, and the people that have dished out the money don't have the balls to say "OK, this isn't working, we need to cut our losses and start from scratch."
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
What is the back up for the system, Cloudy-Sky in general? Can the trunking sites be used in conventional mode it the trunking system goes down? Why doesn't Milwaukee have a conventional back up system for when the system goes down or use the Icall/Itac channels for back up? Something other than MDTs and cell phones.

The communication center that I work for we have switch to our back up multiple times. We use a moto P25 system. No system is perfect they will go down. At lest when our P25 system goes down we can still use our radios and repeaters in conventional mode.
 

mkescan

Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2004
Messages
829
Location
Milwaukee
I' And please, spare me the absurd and pathetic "You're just sore because the system is unmonitorable!" line. I'm a public safety official, not some Betty Bearcat. I couldn't care less, nor am I affected by, whether or not OpenSky is monitorable with a consumer scanner. I have no interest one way or the other on the topic of OpenSky, I'm only interested in truth and facts. You, on the other hand, seem to have a very vested interest in OpenSky, and are only interested in defending it and regurgitating the company talking points. :roll:

I was just going to say something like that. Who is complaining they can't monitor on a scanner?
99% of the people here are upset because officers and now firefighters do not have a radio system they can depend on. Then there is the amount of money Milwaukee keeps spending on this with promises over and over and over that problems will be fixed. Wonder why UWM PD just joined the Milwaukee County TRS? Years ago Milwaukee was talking about letting other agencies use OpenSky, my guess is that will never happen. Milwaukee Fire is now using OpenSky consoles, and it's really scary how often dispatcher do not hear units in the field, or how dispatch thinks they transmitted and units never heard them. The other day at a rollover on the freeway with extrication, MFD command had to use a cellphone because dispatcher wasn't hearing him all the time.
 

Thayne

Member
Joined
May 1, 2002
Messages
2,145
The problem with Open Sky is simple. "the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"

Exactly right--Oftentimes less IS more.

One thing about EDACS is that it can use any channel for a control channel and does it by design; while MOTO is limited in that regard. A few times this has made a difference in a system still working or not.
 

GTR8000

NY/NJ Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
16,119
Location
BEE00
Chauffer6 If the PA system is so bad why did the State Police Just recently switch completely over to OPEN-SKY as announced by Radio Reference.

They still fall back to the VHF system multiple times a day, every single day in many parts of the state, because OpenSky is not reliable. So no, I'm sorry but your contention that they have "switched completely over" is simply untrue. On paper, perhaps, but not in reality. Again, you're hundreds of miles away defending a system based on what you read on Radio Reference and elsewhere, not based on firsthand, factual information. These guys aren't operating on paper, they're operating out in the real world...not some fantasy land you speak of where OpenSky magically works. :twisted:


If it was so Probematic would they have made the switch?

Because they paid $$$$$$$$$$$ for the system, and had to make use of it at some point. Are you really naive enough to believe that politicians and desk jockeys wouldn't press a flawed system into operation just to save face with the taxpayers? :roll:


Here in Milwaukee I am confident any problems that remain, will be dealt with to the users satisfaction, and hope you and others feel likewise as I think it will be a great tool to aid Law-Enforcement and improve city services.

They haven't been able to "fix it" for over a decade. Maybe Harris can finally figure out how to get OpenSky up to an acceptable reliability for public safety use, but I won't hold my breath. I hope so, for the sake of the brothers and sisters in the field forced to use this inferior, never-intended-to-be-mission-critical system every day.
 

R8000

Very Low Battery
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,021
Please tell us Tencom, if it's so wonderful, why after 7 years does it STILL not work ? 7 years is a long time as far as technology goes.

How many more years will it take to get the bugs out ?

How many more millions of dollars will need to be thrown at it before 30 days of continuous use without a complaint by it's full compliment of intended users ?

How many more years will the Opensky format be available before Harris kills it off for development on P25IP ?

What backup plan is in place in the event of a system outage for Milwaukee ? The question about conventional repeater fallback is a good one. Smartnet has several layers of backup until the system goes into FAILSAFE and acts as community repeaters. Can Opensky do this or something similar ?

You claim that opensky is wonderful, and a huge hit. If it was, why isn't it the dominant format for public safety or even commercial radio users nationwide ?

Can you provide one working Opensky public safety system example outside of Milwaukee where everybody is happy with it ? I don't know this answer myself, but it appears that you have some inside information that we don't. I also do not have the exact list of installed Opensky public safety systems in the USA. I just would like to know of one where it is confirmed that is works as it's supposed to for public safety by design. The only one I can think of is a utility company in California...and I can't recall the name of it, but it's not a public safety system.
 

OpSec

All your WACN are belong to us
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,901
Location
Monitoring the database
Haven't we already dismissed Tencom as the OpenSky poster boy in several other threads?

Don't feed the trolls.
 

ToDaMax

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
170
Location
Mequon
I will admit i am a bit bummed that i cannot hear opensky, but there is an obviously bigger problem with it.

I am not sure how long the system actually went down. Some soureces say 2 hours. On this forum, they say 30 minutes. I heard that 3 murders took place when it was down. These are all rumors of what i heard. I'm not calling of that as a fact.

Opensky is a problematic system, end of story. Although i cannot say that Analog is better than Opensky, even though Analog probably has less major problems, i feel confident in saying that there are much better digital type systems that can be used with similar benefits and less mess than Opensky. Hearing the system failure does not supprise me, not in the least. And i am not supprised that officers rely on their cell phones more than the system itself.

There is already a hazard with the lack of communication among law enforcement. I am concerned that MFD is switching to the system as well. I would not want to put my life in the hands of a system where firefigters cannot communicate with each other and/or with dispatch. They are still using the VHF frequencies for dispatch and are using thier Opensky radios as well, which sounds like it is very problematic, and i personally dont know how they're using both at one in the first place.

Milwaukee is pretty much fubared on this system, but they've already sunk millions into it. Either they can pull the million dollar plug, which would be a bold move, or they can - and most likely will - continue to pour more and more money to get this system to work as close to dedent as possible. Nobody knows how long it will be before they either scrap the system or reach a major milestone in fixing the system. Either way, it means for us that we get to face the concequences with the safty risk and the higher taxes.

I dont understand why some people still think Opensky is such a great system. It has dead spots, faulty radios, horrible audio, and now complete system failure. It may be an alright system, but it was not ment to be used for a large metropolitan area like Milwaukee. Maybe it would have worked for a smaller community, but not here.

Wouldn't have been easir to join the Motorolla system? That seems the most logical to me, especially becuase everyone around them is on it. The only problem is that Motorolla's life is ending and they are in the process of replacing that one to with the P25 digital systems. (By the way, how is that even going?) I think it would really be great if Milwaukee scrapped the Opensky bit, and everyone in Milwaukee County worked the single P25 system, so everyone can talk to everyone else easier in the county. Will that happen? Probably not. Too much money spent. If they really needed Opensky, they probably would have much more success in implemeting it is smaller doses or going at an even slower pace. All i can say is that this is going to be one big clusterf***.
 
Last edited:

tencom

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2004
Messages
66
Please tell us Tencom, if it's so wonderful, why after 7 years does it STILL not work ? 7 years is a long time as far as technology goes.

How many more years will it take to get the bugs out ?

How many more millions of dollars will need to be thrown at it before 30 days of continuous use without a complaint by it's full compliment of intended users ?

How many more years will the Opensky format be available before Harris kills it off for development on P25IP ?

What backup plan is in place in the event of a system outage for Milwaukee ? The question about conventional repeater fallback is a good one. Smartnet has several layers of backup until the system goes into FAILSAFE and acts as community repeaters. Can Opensky do this or something similar ?

You claim that opensky is wonderful, and a huge hit. If it was, why isn't it the dominant format for public safety or even commercial radio users nationwide ?

Can you provide one working Opensky public safety system example outside of Milwaukee where everybody is happy with it ? I don't know this answer myself, but it appears that you have some inside information that we don't. I also do not have the exact list of installed Opensky public safety systems in the USA. I just would like to know of one where it is confirmed that is works as it's supposed to for public safety by design. The only one I can think of is a utility company in California...and I can't recall the name of it, but it's not a public safety system.

OPEN-SKY is here and will be for the next 20 years, so accept it. You can't stop progress!
 

ToDaMax

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
170
Location
Mequon
I think its funny how 7 days prior, they said that Opensky was fully functional.

Whatever
 

Seadoo

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
165
Tencom, Not trying to be negative, but Opensky is mostly known for its failures over its reliability, shoot, their are plenty of public saftey agencies that complain about it all the time. We read the stories right here from other members and postings from News articles. Here in Palm Beach County, which is a motorola system, nearly every agency is on the motorola system, but one agency wants to go opensky which everybody here is against, and it is strickly because if price even though they have heard of the stories of opensky. That agency's officers will not be able to communicate with their fellow agencies unless they are patched through dispatch, Where all the other agencies can talk directly to eachother with the flip of a switch on their radios without having to depend on a patch from dispatch. In Saint Lucie County, we had a very very bad lighting storm and one of our towers got hit, it took out the controller at that site and the motorola system fell back failsafe and allowed all the units to continue to talk to each other untill they got the controller back up. Took the techs 30 minutes to repair and we never lost comms with each other. Im just saying for myself, after reading and hearing of all the issues with opensky, I would not pick opensky over a motorola system.
 
Last edited:

MADScan

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
145
Location
Madison, WI
What would be nice to see is Milwaukee turning the frequencies over to the state and jumping on WISCOM, like Detroit does over on MPESS
 

R8000

Very Low Battery
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,021
OPEN-SKY is here and will be for the next 20 years, so accept it. You can't stop progress!

Typical response. Avoid the direct questions...again. I would expect that from someone who has a vested interest in this.
 

R8000

Very Low Battery
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,021
it took out the controller at that site and the motorola system fell back failsafe and allowed all the units to continue to talk to each other untill they got the controller back up.

Yup, one of the redundancy levels built into the Motorola systems. The repeaters MSF5000/MTR2000/Quantar series have the brains in them to function is stand alone repeaters if they lose the connection to the controller. It's called failsoft. When this happens, all radios on the system will display failsoft on their displays, and the system emits a beep tone every 15-20 seconds. Radios are programmed to stay put on a certain repeater if failsoft occurs.

If a trunked channel is lost, the controller will trunk around it. The end users have no idea this happened. The only downfall is your down one channel for capacity.
 

ssd

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
146
Location
NEVADA
I love open sky I think it the best system on paper. But in the real world it su*ks I can't here it or know what's going on. The sad part is a cop could get shoot and call for help and control did not here him. 40 mm later is partner finds him dead cuz control did not here him when he tx. Go Motorola or go home in a body bag.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top