Milwaukee stuck with $17.5 million radio system that may never work right

[mkescan]

Somebody from City of Milwaukee said this in a blog.
It is true we have to go digital and to get down to the required bandwith per talk path of 6.25kHz, digital is the only way at this time. As of today there is no one that we could locate offering a conventional analog system that meets the mandate. If you know of a company let us know. The reason you may have difficultly locating a company that offers it is due to the fact conversation over analog require a lot more bandwith to be understood. Our old system was 25kHz per talkpath. So as you can see something will be lost squeezing down to the required mandate

 

[N_Jay]

Put the FD to meet requirement statement with MPD's Chief saying moving to a digital trunking system was manditory by 2013.
That's where your get the FD saying that they are required to move to the system. The PD was told wrong.

That seems to be the center of the misreading.

The statement was NOT that they were required to move to the new system.

The statement WAS that they were moving to the new system to meet the 2013 requirement.

 

[N_Jay]

Somebody from City of Milwaukee said this in a blog.
It is true we have to go digital and to get down to the required bandwith per talk path of 6.25kHz, digital is the only way at this time. As of today there is no one that we could locate offering a conventional analog system that meets the mandate. If you know of a company let us know. The reason you may have difficultly locating a company that offers it is due to the fact conversation over analog require a lot more bandwith to be understood. Our old system was 25kHz per talkpath. So as you can see something will be lost squeezing down to the required mandate

Just to get everyone back to "facts".

There is no 6.25 kHz bandwidth requirement except for 700 MHz.

The VHF and UHF requirement is 12.5 kHz.

Many agencies have decided (very appropriately) to move to new systems rather than narrowbanding their old system.

There are lots of companies making 12.5 kHz VHF and UHF systems . . . .
. . . . but there are still lots of very good reasons to move to a new system.

 

[SCPD]

He you go N_Jay straight from the MPD Chief's letter.
"First, we must remind ourselves that this transition is not optional. Congress has
mandated that all public safety agencies migrate from analog to digital trunked radio
systems by January 1,2013."
So we are not giving misinformation the PD was given misinformation from either the vendor or someone else.

 

[JoeyC]

He you go N_Jay straight from the MPD Chief's letter.
"First, we must remind ourselves that this transition is not optional. Congress has
mandated that all public safety agencies migrate from analog to digital trunked radio
systems by January 1,2013."
So we are not giving misinformation the PD was given misinformation from either the vendor or someone else.

I don't know squat about what Congress mandated in regards to public safety agencies and the radio spectrum, but I guarantee you they didn't say anything about forcing everyone to trunking.

 

[SCPD]

I don't know squat about what Congress mandated in regards to public safety agencies and the radio spectrum, but I guarantee you they didn't say anything about forcing everyone to trunking.

All they had to do was go narrow band. Congress did not mandate anyone go to any digital system.
N_Jay thinks Milwaukee chose this system to meet the narrow band requirements. They chose this system because they were told they had to go to a digital trunking system.
I bet MFD was told the same misinformation.

 

[N_Jay]

He you go N_Jay straight from the MPD Chief's letter.
"First, we must remind ourselves that this transition is not optional. Congress has
mandated that all public safety agencies migrate from analog to digital trunked radio
systems by January 1,2013."
So we are not giving misinformation the PD was given misinformation from either the vendor or someone else.

Looks like he misspoke or was mistaken, or was misquoted.

Do you belive otherwise?

 

[N_Jay]

All they had to do was go narrow band. Congress did not mandate anyone go to any digital system.
N_Jay thinks Milwaukee chose this system to meet the narrow band requirements. They chose this system because they were told they had to go to a digital trunking system.
I bet MFD was told the same misinformation.

I bet they were better informed than you think.

It is not like there is a lack of articles in almost every public safety trade journal on the topic.

As for the "real" reason, To get that you would need the original decision makers AND a polygraph. (Unless you truly believe you KNOW what anyone else is thinking).

As for what I think, you are making the same mistake with me as you make with the chief.

I believe the quotation that we ended up arguing over meant that they were going to the new system in response to the narrowbanding requirements.

As for what I believe about their actual decision, I never said, but I would bet that the requirement to narrowband was one of (probably many) drivers in the decision.

Let me just state that I was not involved in that decision in any manner, but have been in many similar discussions and decisions in other agencies.

 

[SCPD]

You just hate to be wrong. You can't admit it either.

 

[N_Jay]

You just hate to be wrong. You can't admit it either.

No, I love being wrong.

When I am wrong, I get the opportunity to learn something new.

That is what helps me avoid being wrong the next time.

Was there a specific piece of information you were referring to? (Or was yours an off-topic post?)

 

[mkescan]

Police Chief, Fire Chief, Alderman and others at city hall said Congress has
mandated that all public safety agencies migrate from analog to digital trunked radio
systems by January 1,2013. They picked OpenSky because supposedly nobody else had the features they needed.
As of now, OpenSky doesn't have all the features they promised. Patrol squads still only have 16 channels, just like they had on the old radios.

 

[N_Jay]

What "features" were promised and not delivered?

 

[JGP]

Old UHF Radios

Police Chief, Fire Chief, Alderman and others at city hall said Congress has
mandated that all public safety agencies migrate from analog to digital trunked radio
systems by January 1,2013. They picked OpenSky because supposedly nobody else had the features they needed.
As of now, OpenSky doesn't have all the features they promised. Patrol squads still only have 16 channels, just like they had on the old radios.

The old 16 channels worked when a radio was keyed (not counting when two or more officers keyed at the same time). The OpenSky 16 channels...maybe or some of the time. What a deal Milwaukee got for spending all that money. They should pat themselves on the back and be proud of what they have done? Maybe turning back is much better for the city than not.

The City of Kenosha Police use conventional VHF P25, and it works great for them. Milwaukee Police could have done something like this also and saved a ton of money.

 

[Mweiher]

Somebody from City of Milwaukee said this in a blog.
It is true we have to go digital and to get down to the required bandwith per talk path of 6.25kHz, digital is the only way at this time. As of today there is no one that we could locate offering a conventional analog system that meets the mandate. If you know of a company let us know. The reason you may have difficultly locating a company that offers it is due to the fact conversation over analog require a lot more bandwith to be understood. Our old system was 25kHz per talkpath. So as you can see something will be lost squeezing down to the required mandate

MKESCAN, you make an interesting point, but you are forgetting about one MAJOR MAJOR issue. During Chief Jones' administration, Sheriff Clarke invited the City to migrate to the MCTRS to meet the narrowbanding mandate. (I have a copy of the letter in my files.) So there WAS an alternative that would/could have provided the officers with a shared system level of interop communications - the highest on the SAFECOM continuum. That would have cost the city only a couple of million to switch subscribers as well as beef up the infrastructure to handle the additional capacity issues. And it would have WORKED on day 1. The city chose to go on their own and now are in this jam. But to say they had no other real alternative is a complete mistake. :roll:

 

[mkescan]

MKESCAN, you make an interesting point, but you are forgetting about one MAJOR MAJOR issue. During Chief Jones' administration, Sheriff Clarke invited the City to migrate to the MCTRS to meet the narrowbanding mandate.

That wasn't my comment, somebody else was saying that in another blog, I knew all about letter from Sheriff Clarke

 

[mkescan]

Milwaukee Alderman Proposes Using Emergency Fund For Police Radio
Alderman Proposes Using Emergency Fund For Police Radios | Today's TMJ4 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Weather, Sports, WTMJ | Local News

So giving every cop their own brand new radio will solve coverage problems?

 

[R8000]

My guess is this is to overcome unit ID issues with displaying PTT ID's and emergency ID's on the console. Sharing radios causes huge issues with alias's .

 

[mkescan]

Yeah but, they are also making it sound like getting new radios will solve the coverage problems.

 

[mkescan]

More interviews with Chief Flynn
I-Team Exclusive: Opensky Clearing Up | Today's TMJ4 - Milwaukee, Wisconsin News, Weather, Sports, WTMJ | Local News

YouTube - Milwaukee Police Chief Flynn on Open Sky radio system

 

[ka9tgn]

Just a general question, does MCTRS still have talk groups available for the Milwaukee Police should they at some point go there? I am thinking what is ultimately going to change things is that a officer will get hurt because of not being able communicate properly. Sadly this is how top officials will view things before a new system is proposed. My brother is a MPD Officer and said today that he tried to key his radio 6 times before he received a permit tone. Imagine calling for backup and you can't get through. Not a good situation.

The system doesn't work reliably, they need to bite the bullet and move on.


-Mike
KA9TGN