Monroe County Fire Transition to P25 TRS

[ThePagerGeek]

The 1st Battalion received a FEMA Assistance to Firefighters grant in 2017 for all new radios ~$1.6million. (APX8000XE and APX8500). They were installed and operational in 2018.

Most recently, they have been awaiting vehicle repeater installs for the full transition to trunked. In the meantime, they will be doing the hybrid response (mentioned in post #12) starting March 1.

Moving a county fire service from one communications system to another is hard when the County doesn't own the radios. It's not as easy as saying, "here's the date." There are a LOT of logistics that exist, and if overlooked, will eventually come to back and cause delays.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

@Motoman55

No opinion on this one? Seems like Theo supports your thoughts prior to deleting them...

 

[RF-Burns]

No opinion on this one? Seems like Theo supports your thoughts prior to deleting them...

My thoughts are how sad this system build has been, the extreme lack in HT coverage on a system that has been around for 8 years. Harris still hasn't fixed these BIG gaps in service. Secondly how sad the migration has been to this system due to poor education to the end users. How sad is it that 8 years after the infrastructure was built you still have departments that refuse to use it due to poor coverage and lack of education about trunking. Putting DVRS systems in all trucks is absolutely absurd! You don't need a DVRS on scene if the system was built correctly the 1st time. I've been involved with P25 Phase I & II infrastructure build outs for the past 20 years. Watching this system implode since 2010 has been eyeopening to say the least for many other areas of the country. If Monroe County only knew how they are laughed at over this system, I use it regularly in my presentations with my local and state contacts and potential new clients. "Now lets look at Monroe County, NY, this is what you don't do"

 

[ThePagerGeek]

I agree with you. This is best characterized as a system that lacked input and buy-in from the stakeholders at the onset. Then, the administration continues to compound the problem by solving any issues later on in a vacuum, failing to truly identify the root concerns of the users.

Disappointing.

 

[billyfromhill]

The vehicle repeaters should have been VHF to 800, not 800 to 800 so you can reuse the VHF portables everyone already has. It seems kind of short sighted that all these fire departments had to purchase expensive TDMA radios, only to use them through a P25 conventional repeater. Also, what's stopping anyone from going out and getting refurbished 800 MHz XTS portables for cheap (compared to an APX) to use through the repeaters?

 

[RF-Burns]

Also, what's stopping anyone from going out and getting refurbished 800 MHz XTS portables for cheap (compared to an APX) to use through the repeaters?

XTS Radios are not TDMA Compatible.

 

[billyfromhill]

XTS Radios are not TDMA Compatible.

Yes but the mobile repeater input (user side) is P25 conventional so you don't need a TDMA radio.

 

[RF-Burns]

Yes but the mobile repeater input (user side) is P25 conventional so you don't need a TDMA radio.

Are you insinuating you want departments to buy radios that are not compatible with the system in which they will be using? Mobile repeaters are only going to be used for “in building applications”. Bottom line is you do the job correct the first time you don’t put a Band-Aid on a situation when it comes to communications. Every department in Monroe County has had over 10 years to save money to buy radios. Even the poorest department in Monroe County has had enough tax revenue over 10 years to save and buy radios. They’ve known for close to 15 years the system was coming and was told then to save money for radios. Not to mention the hundreds of grants that are available

 

[ThePagerGeek]

@billyfromhill
- As for purchasing refurbished XTSs, you need to think long term. For discontinued radios, with diminishing manufacturer support, it would be a poor 10 year investment. Not all calls would use the repeaters. Not all trucks or vehicles may have them.

- Additionally, to be able to use the DVRS (or any repeater) you still need a mobile that is compatible with the system it's talking to.

- Lastly, the departments that might consider such an option are likely the lower income, all-volunteer based agencies. The volunteer officer response will likely be without a repeater until an apparatus arrives with a repeater. (Repeaters not cheap either.) They need newer portable radios compatible with the system to talk to dispatch or responding units.

- In the end, all but 1 agency were able to obtain the needed funds for the system. And the 1 is getting some help from another agency until they can get their own cache of radios completed.

@Motoman55
- To be fair, the system was announced in late 2010, just after the narrowbanding project wrapped up, so it's coming up on 10 years. (Not over)

- There are no 100% coverage systems that exist. Having vehicle repeaters for instances of lack of in-building coverage is good for EVERY system that deals with IDLH / fireground comms, if they want to get back to the system for dispatch, etc. However, using repeaters as the primary means to communicate for EVERY call as part of an initial system design is a problem (NY SWN system for example). Using them to supplement a system is acceptable.

- Not all departments in Monroe County are tax based. In fact, 1/3 are not. These are fire protection districts that contract with towns, villages or other fire districts. They don't have the luxury of setting their own tax rate like a district. Even some of the tax based departments aren't swimming in funds.

- Again, they haven't known for 15 years. The deal to purchase it was late 2009, announced late 2010.

- I'm familiar with the majority of grants available to the fire service. Other than FEMA AFG, which grants do you speak of? "hundreds"? Those that were able to get a grant are certainly grateful, but not every department that applied received one. I would say about less than 50% of the agencies that applied actually got a grant.

 

[RF-Burns]

@ThePagerGeek to be honest system is so damn old already due to mismanagement I guess time has blended together. 10 years or 15 years who cares. Its more than enough time for department who receive a budget regardless of how they are funded to save money. The poorest dept in Monroe County (Mumford) still has a very sizable budget every year. Hamlin, Walker, Morton Fire District once was very poor but their budgets have grown quite nicely since the merger years ago. The excuse department don't have the money is BS at best. 10 years to save and only a few did. This is what happens when you but uneducated people in charge of a fire dept. They see money and they spend it on Tahoe's, 10k worth of lights, and leather fire helmets.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

@Motoman55
Your exaggerations and inaccuracies discredit you and your arguments. You are somewhat familiar with the agencies closest to where you were from, but fail to realize there is an entire county beyond the West side agencies. Sea Breeze Fire District has the least amount of revenue in the county. (1/3 of Mumford.) At ~$120k per year for total operations, they rely heavily on donations and surplus equipment. They funded their radios through a regional AFG grant with 6 other agencies in 2017. Every other county agency was able to get the needed funding with the exception of 1 and they are making it work with some help. Thus, your statement "10 years to save and only a few did" is again, inaccurate. Contrary to saving, some chose a path of bonding to assure they could wait as long as possible to purchase equipment close to the cut-over date (since the date moved from the initial 2016 target) to maximize radio longevity.

Capital funding isn't a problem, I'm not sure why you would bring it up in post #30 instead of the technical and operational aspect of why it is not the preferred option against XTSs. Instead you ridicule the agencies incorrectly with exaggerated "facts."

I guess the "uneducated people in charge" were right... since they are able to buy radios AND Tahoes, lighting and leather helmets.

 

[RF-Burns]

@Motoman55
Your exaggerations and inaccuracies discredit you and your arguments. You are somewhat familiar with the agencies closest to where you were from, but fail to realize there is an entire county beyond the West side agencies. Sea Breeze Fire District has the least amount of revenue in the county. (1/3 of Mumford.) At ~$120k per year for total operations, they rely heavily on donations and surplus equipment. They funded their radios through a regional AFG grant with 6 other agencies in 2017. Every other county agency was able to get the needed funding with the exception of 1 and they are making it work with some help. Thus, your statement "10 years to save and only a few did" is again, inaccurate. Contrary to saving, some chose a path of bonding to assure they could wait as long as possible to purchase equipment close to the cut-over date (since the date moved from the initial 2016 target) to maximize radio longevity.

Capital funding isn't a problem, I'm not sure why you would bring it up in post #30 instead of the technical and operational aspect of why it is not the preferred option against XTSs. Instead you ridicule the agencies incorrectly with exaggerated "facts."

I guess the "uneducated people in charge" were right... since they are able to buy radios AND Tahoes, lighting and leather helmets.

I can speak for many departments on the west side that are now scrambling to by radios. They say they don’t have the money yet each chief has a white New Yorker on their head and drive a shinny new Tahoe. Oh who can forget about the nice Boston Leather Radio Straps and $150 a pop.

All I’m saying is I don’t feel sorry for these depts. They had more than enough time to save or apply for grants. But they were to busy replacing 8 year old trucks with hardly any use just to be another dept with a shinny new ladder. It really is the “M-O” of depts in Monroe County. Big buildings, a surplus of Tahoe’s and Leathet Helmets. You ever see NGFD storage on Latta Rd? Unreal but now they say they have no money for radios. What a joke.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

"I can speak for many departments on the west side that are now scrambling to by radios."

Many? Name 3.

I'll wait....

Nobody is scrambling to BUY radios. Your information is grossly inaccurate.

 

[RF-Burns]

"I can speak for many departments on the west side that are now scrambling to by radios."

Many? Name 3.

I'll wait....

Nobody is scrambling to BUY radios. Your information is grossly inaccurate.

I would never publicly name a Dept other than NGFD because they have the money and they are screwing tax payers into giving them more money

 

[ThePagerGeek]

NGFD already has all of their radios. They've had them for over a year, close to 2.

Like I said in Post31, only 1 agency is still in need of radios, and they aren't complaining.

You're just spreading misinformation.

 

[RF-Burns]

NGFD already has all of their radios. They've had them for over a year, close to 2.

Like I said in Post31, only 1 agency is still in need of radios, and they aren't complaining.

You're just spreading misinformation.

They are lying to someone then

 

[ThePagerGeek]

STILL someone else's fault for your misinformation? Just stop... You want to know who's being lied to, go look in the mirror.

 

[RF-Burns]

STILL someone else's fault for your misinformation? Just stop... You want to know who's being lied to, go look in the mirror.

Really? I was just in a meeting 2 weeks ago with department chiefs from the west side starting exactly what I said. Maybe up in your 1st Batt you have your facts straight but you certainly don’t for the remainder. You’ve come a long way since your CAP Code programming days, don’t ruin it.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

LMAO. Now you're just digging the hole even deeper. Just stop and save what little respect you have left. I'm working with agencies in the entire county (each battalion, including the city) for their transition. My other roles have given me first-hand, direct knowledge of each agency status beyond those I am providing direct technical support for (including NGFD.) Your comments are only showing those that DO know the current status, just how completely disconnected you are. Seriously, grow up. I'm not at all worried about my reputation, but thanks for the concern.

 

[GTR8000]

*sigh* It must be a slow weekend down in Iredell County...no MVA's to assist at, I guess.