motel BDA RFI

[speedway_navigator]

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-412647A1.pdf

Agents received a complaint that radio emissions in the 806-817 MHz band were emanating from a part 90 signal booster installed at the Hampton Inn and Suites.

 

[alcahuete]

Interesting. How do they know it's a Part 90 signal booster if they don't know the make, model, serial number of the system? Lucky guess?

 

[speedway_navigator]

I posted this because it's one of the first I've seen in a while and implies it's a consumer grade unit from the description to the owners about their responsibilities. I have done RFI hunting for Verizon and a friend did it for AT+T, the carriers usually dealt with this after we sent them the report.
To me it sounds like no one wanted to do anything about it so the FCC was called in.

I have seen similar NOVs for motel cable systems leaking into the aircraft or radar bands near airports.

 

[N4DES]

This was a much better catch. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-411957A1.pdf

 

[MTS2000des]

The FCC EB needs to hire as many agents as the IRS allegedly did. They'll need it. Between garbage pail BDAs and part 15 feces pieces all over the spectrum, going to be some busy times. Like an Orkin man in a greasy kitchen in Brooklyn, full on war against the roaches- and there will always be MORE ROACHES.

 

[tweiss3]

The problem is only going to get worse. Building codes keep requiring more energy efficiency, which in turn uses materials that end up attenuating RF all while a majority (not all) of emergency services are on wide area systems designed for vehicular coverage not portable coverage, and they all let the code revisions require portable coverage in all buildings.

 

[MTS2000des]

The comments being filed with the NFPA on the next revision of the LSC are good from a working group I am working with. System operators and RF folks need to be involved and we are finally being heard It's being driven home that the LICENSEE MUST be involved and MUST give WRITTEN PERMISSION for any part 90 signal booster to operate REGARDLESS of building codes. The effects of a malfunctioning or improperly installed/configured BDA can go far beyond the reaches of ones' building.

 

[mmckenna]

Code needs to catch up with technology. I'm having to deal with these in-building solutions at work, and it's getting stupid. Public safety needs to embrace LTE/WiFi integration in their radios. In building coverage needs to be based off that. Add LTE hotspots, appropriately hardened, to new construction where needed. Let the radios fail over to LTE and not have interference risks to LMR.

Worked with a guy that was tossing around an idea of rolling something into WiFi standards that would require networks to pass public safety traffic so these radios could affiliate with existing WiFi networks to find their way. Would make a ton of sense to use the technology that already exists and gets used by occupants every day.

 

[MTS2000des]

My school board folks just ordered a ton more of N50s to add to the 120 N70s they bought earlier this year. Authoring a codeplug for them as we speak. They are going this route versus BDA nonsense aside the cost of these noisemaking TURD BDAs for ONE school paid for the N50s. Using enterprise WiFi with hardened access points with segregated VLAN is much easier and cost effective but certain so-called NGOs have become nothing more than shills for the BDA/DAS industry and are pushing this crap like McDonald's pushes fast junk food. Sadly they get the ear of many fire command staff. In Georgia, adopting NFPA1225 is an OPTION but they leave the majority of building code decisions to local AHJs who are too easily gaslit into going the BDA route.

 

[12dbsinad]

I remember years ago when the BDA push started with the NFPA I said to my co-workers, This is going to turn into a disaster! And, not to pat myself on the back, but I was right.

I agree, BDA is old technology, old news and not cost effective but everyone will try to squeeze every last dollar out of that dying pig before a fork gets stuck in it. WIFI/LTE is where it's at. Eventually LTE WILL take over LMR PS systems, especially in urban areas. LMR is just getting too expensive to operate and maintain for strictly voice and limited data. It will eventually become obsolete as sure as I'm typing this, just give it time.

 

[mmckenna]

And, not to pat myself on the back, but I was right.

You's was right.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I think I posted here a few years ago I wondered why a building could not be its own site with just a few channels instead of assuming a half dozen TGs would all be going at once. I can see CBRS being added to LMR like it is being used for carrier neutral DAS in some tests.

The downside of using a 3rd party network is the lack of control of all the devices accessing it and we are at the mercy of the network operator to respond as quickly as we do.

 

[speedway_navigator]

The comments being filed with the NFPA on the next revision of the LSC are good from a working group I am working with.

I got an email from the NFPA president about pending code changes but no specifics. My first thought was they might have been hit with cuts in federal money by Trump and or DOGE. Can you enlighten us?

 

[mmckenna]

I think I posted here a few years ago I wondered why a building could not be its own site with just a few channels instead of assuming a half dozen TGs would all be going at once. I can see CBRS being added to LMR like it is being used for carrier neutral DAS in some tests.

Exactly.
I went to a NorCal APCO presentation about a year and a half ago with mostly fire agencies in attendance and this was discussed at length. Most agreed that the current NFPA requirement for radio coverage were pretty awful and poorly thought out. BDA's were greatly discouraged and lots of good examples of their failures were given.

DAS type systems were given as the superior choice.
I brought up LTE/WiFi and got a few nods, but most seemed stuck on the idea that the LMR specific DAS system was the solution.

The downside of using a 3rd party network is the lack of control of all the devices accessing it and we are at the mercy of the network operator to respond as quickly as we do.

Yeah, that's the challenge to overcome. My experience with network wonks and emergency type services has not been without challenges.
Not an insurmountable task to overcome, but not going to be easy.

Most of this has already been solved, though, on some scale. The EduRoam system provides authentication for roaming users between many large educational institutions where devices will automatically register when it finds an eduroam network. Something similar could be set up for public safety users.
Getting building owners/LAN operators to agree would be a challenge, but probably no harder than getting those same people to actually maintain their BDA systems.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

This was a much better catch. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-411957A1.pdf

Not sure why the threatening official notice. It appears that the Agents visit to Asian Touch Spa, had a Happy Ending...

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I remember years ago when the BDA push started with the NFPA I said to my co-workers, This is going to turn into a disaster! And, not to pat myself on the back, but I was right.

I agree, BDA is old technology, old news and not cost effective but everyone will try to squeeze every last dollar out of that dying pig before a fork gets stuck in it. WIFI/LTE is where it's at. Eventually LTE WILL take over LMR PS systems, especially in urban areas. LMR is just getting too expensive to operate and maintain for strictly voice and limited data. It will eventually become obsolete as sure as I'm typing this, just give it time.

It was sometimes a necessary evil and we were all dumb back then and had no idea it would become an industry feeding on tax dollars and growing like a tumor.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-412647A1.pdf

Agents received a complaint that radio emissions in the 806-817 MHz band were emanating from a part 90 signal booster installed at the Hampton Inn and Suites.

link seems to be broken.....

 

[speedway_navigator]

Is youse guys biggest problem multiple donor antennas hitting the repeater site at the same time or some other issue like too much ERP from a closer DAS site?
I'm assuming capture effect would mean a DAS building a mile from the site could take out a user in a DAS building 3 miles away.

we were all dumb back then

Some of us have stayed at that level, just ask our wives...

 

[MTS2000des]

The biggest problem is the noise floor increase and these chucksters all deciding to done where they want to. That an illegal carriers from oscillations. It's PTSD just thinking about it.

 

[PACNWDude]

I still get calls from a local county, for a building complex that was sold three years ago, complaining about oscillations of "my" BDA/DAS. I refer them to T-Mobile, the current owner of the compound......even sending pictures of the BDA in storage, never to be used again by me or my employer (I removed some pieces to ensure that.....corporate can't see to scrap/sell the unit, thinking it is still worth a lot of money - anything deemed worth more than $5k).

Supposedly this county has an estimated 700 BDA's that were oscillating (many counties here on the West Coast are larger than many East Coast states), that they know about.....and who knows how many consumer grade garbage units out there?