APX Motorola Subscribers on L3H P25 Infrastructure - Codeplugs

[Detblow2]

Is there anyone using Moto subscriber radios on an L3H P25 system? Would love to compare a codeplug from a system that has been in place for a while to mine. We just migrated to a new L3H system and have many issues. Trying to rule out subscriber issues versus infrastructure issues.

Thanks!

 

[K2NEC]

Should work with no real issues. Only difference being L3H uses all channels as control/voice.

What kind of issues are you experiencing?

 

[nikronzo]

First off you should describe your issues so we can better assist what problems you are having.
But no, Moto subscribers don't typically work out of the box with L3 TRS' without some slight modifications. Some differences that are important are:

• L3 Harris band plans are different from the Moto 7/8 standard, alter you IDEN table to the specific systems
• All frequencies are capable of being CC's technically, so all should be entered
• Astro25 XTS/XTL subs won't work unless coverage type is set to Intra-Wacn roaming which requires a WACN hardware key
• APX subs should not have WUID validity support, NAC validation, and Moto Prop features checked off
• Patching is done differently on Harris, so Simulselect groups will dynamically have new #s, meaning you have to follow an origin TG and not program the dynamic group

 

[Project25_MASTR]

First off you should describe your issues so we can better assist what problems you are having.
But no, Moto subscribers don't typically work out of the box with L3 TRS' without some slight modifications. Some differences that are important are:

• L3 Harris band plans are different from the Moto 7/8 standard, alter you IDEN table to the specific systems
• All frequencies are capable of being CC's technically, so all should be entered
• Astro25 XTS/XTL subs won't work unless coverage type is set to Intra-Wacn roaming which requires a WACN hardware key
• APX subs should not have WUID validity support, NAC validation, and Moto Prop features checked off
• Patching is done differently on Harris, so Simulselect groups will dynamically have new #s, meaning you have to follow an origin TG and not program the dynamic group

Pretty sure I have an XTS2500 codeplug with a L3-Harris system on it that works without intra-WACN. Has to have Omnilink enabled though in the SmartZone settings. I'd have to check and see how my APX7000 is configured for that same system. Maybe I can find that codeplug from 8 years ago while I'm at it.

Edit 1:
APX has WUID Validity Support checked, NAC validation checked, and Moto Prop Features unchecked. (Valid codeplug built by the system owner and then re-verified last time I rebuilt it). Oh yea, it's also not a simulcast system so SmartZone with Omnilink has to be present so the radio will roam between sites (with a standard ASK). Thinking about it, my settings much match on my Viking radios as well (inter-RFSS, NAC validation and WUID Validation).

Edit 2:
Found the XTS by serial number first try in my As_Programmed archive (it's the only one that's not VHF). OmniLink enabled for SmartZone, Moto Prop disabled, WUID validation disabled.

 

[Detblow2]

First off you should describe your issues so we can better assist what problems you are having.
But no, Moto subscribers don't typically work out of the box with L3 TRS' without some slight modifications. Some differences that are important are:

• L3 Harris band plans are different from the Moto 7/8 standard, alter you IDEN table to the specific systems
• All frequencies are capable of being CC's technically, so all should be entered
• Astro25 XTS/XTL subs won't work unless coverage type is set to Intra-Wacn roaming which requires a WACN hardware key
• APX subs should not have WUID validity support, NAC validation, and Moto Prop features checked off
• Patching is done differently on Harris, so Simulselect groups will dynamically have new #s, meaning you have to follow an origin TG and not program the dynamic group

Thank you for the information. To sum it up briefly, the issue is audio being missed by the Moto subscribers. I can confirm the audio is leaving the console (via scanner app recordings) but Moto subscribers never hear it. Scanning compounds the problem, but the issue is present even when a user is not scanning. Another factor is the Harris Simulselect, which you mentioned. I have no proof, but it seems that the "super group" created by the Symphony simulselect somehow confuses or never reaches the subscribers.

Here are a couple of screenshots from my P25 system. Does anything jump out as being questionable? (I'm using radio management, therefore this screenshot doesn't show the unit id.)

Thanks!

 

[nikronzo]

Partially Missed Audio or completely missed audio?
Because completely missed would tell me your band plan is incorrect.
Harris simulselect basically takes 2 talkgroups and makes a dynamic new one. There's usually a pool of 100 dynamic simulselect groups for the console to use. So if TG2000 and TG2001 are patched on the symphony into a simulselect group, say the pool is 60000, the new TG becomes 60001 and anyone listening to either 2000 or 2001 are then told to monitor 60001. It is a P25 spec so any subscriber should function without issue.

 

[KevinC]

Don't rule out duplicate radio ID's as those can cause intermittent missed audio.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Is there anyone using Moto subscriber radios on an L3H P25 system? Would love to compare a codeplug from a system that has been in place for a while to mine. We just migrated to a new L3H system and have many issues. Trying to rule out subscriber issues versus infrastructure issues.

Thanks!

In Alberta, we have a 330+ site Harris trunk system, most sites are 700MHz, there is 1 5 site simulcast cell, and a bunch sites off grid, VHF, using Codan/Daniels stations, linked back to grid powered sites.

This system has every current 700/800 subscriber manufacturer radios in use on the system.

There have been a variety of growing pains for all but Harris subscribers on this system, but they have mostly been worked out.

We need to know SPECIFICLY what kind of issues you are having in order to even attempt to help you.

 

[detblow]

Thank you for all the information! Here are a few more specifics:

Last night Dispatch broadcast an ATL using a simulselect of our two law talkgroups. The simulselect created talkgroup 65181 (random). The first half of the ATL was not heard by any Motorola subscribers (on either law talkgroup). Dispatch de-keyed, paused, and then re-keyed to finish the ATL. The second half WAS heard by the Motos (same talkgroup ID, 65181).

In an incident a few nights ago, one Moto user called out a foot pursuit on talkgroup A. A second Moto user (standing only 30 feet away) completely missed the traffic on talkgroup A because his radio was set to scan. However, he was selected on talkgroup A which is programmed as his priority. It's like the scan priority isn't being honored now that we've switched to L3H. It was never a problem on the Moto infrastructure. Additionally, on this same call, another Moto user was inbound to the call and was NOT scanning and never heard the foot pursuit either.

We have a couple of simulcast systems and a couple of "IR" sites (not sure what Harris calls them) that cover our county.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[detblow]

In Alberta, we have a 330+ site Harris trunk system, most sites are 700MHz, there is 1 5 site simulcast cell, and a bunch sites off grid, VHF, using Codan/Daniels stations, linked back to grid powered sites.

This system has every current 700/800 subscriber manufacturer radios in use on the system.

There have been a variety of growing pains for all but Harris subscribers on this system, but they have mostly been worked out.

We need to know SPECIFICLY what kind of issues you are having in order to even attempt to help you.

@kayn1n32008 This brings back memories. I came to Alberta in 2017 as we were going through the RFP process for this system. Not sure if you were there at that time. Your folks gave a great presentation and let us tour some of your sites and facilities.

 

[kayn1n32008]

It is a P25 spec so any subscriber should function without issue.

Simulselct is NOT part of the standard.

AFRRCS has 2 agencies that are using using Harris consoles, they both simulselect each other's talkgroups. One is a Harris user, the other Motorola. Because of issues with Simulselect, all manufacturers have done firmware updates to be able to understand what a simulselect is, and act on it properly. When a simulselect is set up, the patch, and involved talkgroups are announced on EVERY site in the system.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Have the subscribers been aligned? Or at least had their alignment checked?

 

[KevinC]

Thank you for all the information! Here are a few more specifics:

Last night Dispatch broadcast an ATL using a simulselect of our two law talkgroups. The simulselect created talkgroup 65181 (random). The first half of the ATL was not heard by any Motorola subscribers (on either law talkgroup). Dispatch de-keyed, paused, and then re-keyed to finish the ATL. The second half WAS heard by the Motos (same talkgroup ID, 65181).

In an incident a few nights ago, one Moto user called out a foot pursuit on talkgroup A. A second Moto user (standing only 30 feet away) completely missed the traffic on talkgroup A because his radio was set to scan. However, he was selected on talkgroup A which is programmed as his priority. It's like the scan priority isn't being honored now that we've switched to L3H. It was never a problem on the Moto infrastructure. Additionally, on this same call, another Moto user was inbound to the call and was NOT scanning and never heard the foot pursuit either.

We have a couple of simulcast systems and a couple of "IR" sites (not sure what Harris calls them) that cover our county.

Thanks again for your help.

Is your digital modulator set to CQPSK?

 

[detblow]

Is your digital modulator set to CQPSK?

Yes:

Have the subscribers been aligned? Or at least had their alignment checked?

Yes, most have been aligned within the past couple of years. We try to do an alignment every time the radio gets reassigned. Almost all of our subscribers are less than 3 years old (I know that doesn't guarantee a good alignment) but they are in pretty good shape overall.

 

[kayn1n32008]

We have a couple of simulcast systems and a couple of "IR" sites (not sure what Harris calls them) that cover our county.

Thanks again for your help.

When you say IR, are they single RF channel sites?

 

[GTR8000]

When you say IR, are they single RF channel sites?

The term IR has been somewhat corrupted over the years. The more appropriate term for ASTRO 25 systems would be ASR, i.e. a non-simulcast standalone site, which can have up to 28 repeaters. A single-frequency site would be more commonly called "VOC" where the control channel switches to voice traffic as needed. I don't believe that is what the OP is referring to.

 

[detblow]

The term IR has been somewhat corrupted over the years. The more appropriate term for ASTRO 25 systems would be ASR, i.e. a non-simulcast standalone site, which can have up to 28 repeaters. A single-frequency site would be more commonly called "VOC" where the control channel switches to voice traffic as needed. I don't believe that is what the OP is referring to.

Correct. We have both simulcast and non-simulcast sites (ASR). Thanks!

 

[kayn1n32008]

When you say scanning, are you scanning a mix of conventional frequencies and trunking talkgroups or just talkgroups on the trunk system?

 

[Detblow2]

When you say scanning, are you scanning a mix of conventional frequencies and trunking talkgroups or just talkgroups on the trunk system?

Only talkgroups on the one trunking system in the radio. No conventional.

 

[WB6WQF]

Using XTS / XTL / APX Radios to Scan Harris / Other Systems with Non-Standard SYSID / NAC Grouping

XTS/XTL radios are configured to validate the NAC against the System ID. If a match is not found, the radio does not attempt to register/affiliate to the trunking site. Also, scanning a trunking system from a conventional channel will not be possible. This validation does not take place when Intra-WACN Roaming is selected and the coverage type is set to SmartZone. By changing those settings, an XTS / XTL radio can be used on a Harris or other system that uses a System ID / NAC configuration that does not otherwise validate. However, an Advanced WACN Key (AWK) is required to change those settings.

APX radios have an option in CPS where "Validate NAC Against System ID" can be disabled as noted in the previous post. Disabling that setting will allow an APX radio to scan a trunking system with a System ID / NAC configuration that does not otherwise validate.