Motorola XTS5000 question

[firechaser97]

I have a Motorola XTS5000 7/800 I got a quick question, long story short I have a radio that was programmed to receive only on a 800 P25 trunking system with TX inhibit.

I got it back and it worked great, could listen in on our local law enforcement and fire. it was only the main and in the clear channels.

couple weeks later , today I woke up this morning and went to turn the unit on to find “OUT OF RANGE”
when I go to view RSSI it shows 0 on both the sites. and also displayed “SITE XX”

I go to check my email later in the day and it’s the tech guy, he said admin had to got a hold of him to shut the radio off. essentially it was unauthorized on the system. It got killed. It was on his part. The goal was to set it up essentially like a scanner. he said the problem was that he created a unit ID for radio and It affiliated on the sys. I take it back to him to be re-programmed later this week.

I got a question though. when he clears out the unit ID and back in the clear not affiliating will I still have access to the channels and zones in the radio? I should be asking him this but he’s gone home for the day.

 

[GTR8000]

I should be asking him this but he’s gone home for the day.

He's lucky he wasn't sent home permanently.

What you'll have access to depends on how he reprograms the radio. Like you said, you need to ask him, only he has the answer. Chances are you'll only have access to the conventional channels that call up scan lists, as parking on a talkgroup gets you right back to the issue with the radio trying to register/affiliate.

 

[firechaser97]

He's lucky he wasn't sent home permanently.

What you'll have access to depends on how he reprograms the radio. Like you said, you need to ask him, only he has the answer. Chances are you'll only have access to the conventional channels that call up scan lists, as parking on a talkgroup gets you right back to the issue with the radio trying to register/affiliate.

that brings me to “non-affiliate” scan what is that exactly.

 

[prcguy]

You should run far away from the person your dealing with, they apparently have no clue what they are doing putting you in violation of FCC rules at the minimum and a target for your local law enforcement for accessing their radio system. There are ways to make a 5000 do non affiliate scan but its not something that can be easily explained here. It seems lots of people are setting up Motorola radios for scanning trunked systems and many have no idea what they are doing.

I have a Motorola XTS5000 7/800 I got a quick question, long story short I have a radio that was programmed to receive only on a 800 P25 trunking system with TX inhibit.

I got it back and it worked great, could listen in on our local law enforcement and fire. it was only the main and in the clear channels.

couple weeks later , today I woke up this morning and went to turn the unit on to find “OUT OF RANGE”
when I go to view RSSI it shows 0 on both the sites. and also displayed “SITE XX”

I go to check my email later in the day and it’s the tech guy, he said admin had to got a hold of him to shut the radio off. essentially it was unauthorized on the system. It got killed. It was on his part. The goal was to set it up essentially like a scanner. he said the problem was that he created a unit ID for radio and It affiliated on the sys. I take it back to him to be re-programmed later this week.

I got a question though. when he clears out the unit ID and back in the clear not affiliating will I still have access to the channels and zones in the radio? I should be asking him this but he’s gone home for the day.

 

[firechaser97]

You should run far away from the person your dealing with, they apparently have no clue what they are doing putting you in violation of FCC rules at the minimum and a target for your local law enforcement for accessing their radio system. There are ways to make a 5000 do non affiliate scan but its not something that can be easily explained here. It seems lots of people are setting up Motorola radios for scanning trunked systems and many have no idea what they are doing.

absolutely, I know when he told me he had created an ID for it. I was like “ohhhh” didn’t ask for that but if the radio doesn’t have an ID, will it still be able to be on the trunked system and not affiliate is what I’m asking.

your only in violation of FCC if it you transmits. two is listening in to secure encryption

 

[prcguy]

It appears your radio was affiliating with the system, therefore it was illegally transmitting on a public service radio system which you are not authorized to use.

absolutely, I know when he told me he had created an ID for it. I was like “ohhhh” didn’t ask for that but if the radio doesn’t have an ID, will it still be able to be on the trunked system and not affiliate is what I’m asking.

your only in violation of FCC if it you transmits. two is listening in to secure encryption

 

[chrismol1]

Sounds like a case of programming the radio as TG/AG Disabled if that's what you mean by TX inhibit instead of the actual switch position, which doesn't mean it won't affiliate, it just means you cannot transmit on that talkgroup. Sounds like the "tech" guy didn't get official authorization from the admin. Weird situation. Tech guy is making up unit IDs? So what's his plan to reprogram this radio? To get a legitimate ID? Weird, why didn't he do this in the first place if hes programming radios and apparently in contact with the admin. Weird

Hey, I've a systems question for the group, I've heard an inhibited radio will turn on to a blank screen, or he'd get reg refused or something, what's going on with this guys radio? It not displaying that behavior, the admin has "killed it" but it only displays out of range?

 

[firechaser97]

Sounds like a case of programming the radio as TG/AG Disabled if that's what you mean by TX inhibit instead of the actual switch position, which doesn't mean it won't affiliate, it just means you cannot transmit on that talkgroup. Sounds like the "tech" guy didn't get official authorization from the admin. Weird situation. Tech guy is making up unit IDs? So what's his plan to reprogram this radio? To get a legitimate ID? Weird, why didn't he do this in the first place if hes programming radios and apparently in contact with the admin. Weird

Hey, I've a systems question for the group, I've heard an inhibited radio will turn on to a blank screen, or he'd get reg refused or something, what's going on with this guys radio? It not displaying that behavior, the admin has "killed it" but it only displays out of range?

the goal was to program the radio to “LISTEN ONLY”

the unit has zones and channels

I don’t know why he programmed in an ID on the radio. thats what affiliated the unit with the system. bringing us back to square one. I was thinking that he could make it “non-affiliate” this entire time.

he’s going to remove the unit ID from the radio.

the Question I have for you guys, will clearing the radio’s unit ID make it to where I can stay parked on a talkgroup and not affiliate ?

we’re also going to meet with admin later this week to see the proper routes to go about this.

like some have mentioned above that maybe something wasn’t done properly. I’m not sure if it’s a way you can disable the TX INHIBIT, essentially disabling the PTT button, making it JUST a receive only unit if that’s possible could some educate me

 

[TJX400]

The RID (or what you've called the unit ID) has nothing to do with affiliation. There are numerous options in the CPS that must be unselected in order for the radio not to transmit data packets at all. Even with non affiliate scan, your radio has an "ID" programmed in. You cannot remove the RID in CPS - thus it has absolutely no affect on whether the radio affiliates or not.

Whoever has programmed your radio, has done it so it affiliates with the trunking system. When you turn it on, if you see an RSSI, regardless of if TX inhibit is turned on, the radio has transmitted a data packet to a tower, which has (in your case) accepted the packet, and granted you access to the system. If you are not a verified user of the system and you do this, you have broken FCC rule. Along with this, if the RID in your radio matches one of the other existing subscribers, which is highly likely if the system accepted your affiliation, any time you affiliate with a channel, it will switch the existing subscriber to that channel. This is incredibly dangerous - especially when dealing with public safety - for obvious reasons.

Non affiliate scan is a lengthy method of "hiding" trunked talkgroups past channel 16 in each zone, and putting the trunk channels in scan lists that conventional channels (1-16) "scan". There is far more detail involved in the process, however, that is the very basic idea of how NAS works. The person who programmed your radio is incredibly mistaken by telling you that TX inhibit will allow for non affiliate scanning. In fact, I do not have TX inhibit enabled on my APX for NAS. When set up correctly, it doesn't matter whether it's on or off.

I strongly suggest you take some time and research non affiliate scanning - there is a video on (I think) dailymotion on how to set up NAS on an Astro25 series radio. That method is correct - and when done correctly to the tee - works flawlessly.

Please don't think I have a negative tone - I entirely understand how confusing it is, and I had the (exact) same questions when I first got into the hobby, it just takes quite a bit of research and finagling to do it correctly. I just wanted to underline the importance of properly programming NAS, especially on a trunked system that public safety agencies utilize.

 

[chrismol1]

There is no removing trunking unit ID's from the radio. The default unit ID is 1 and it gets changed from there on proper programming. There will always be a unit ID in one way shape or form

Your radio affiliated with the system because it was programmed as a normal trunking radio. Non affiliate scan is summed up as programming a trunking radio with a conventional channel the radio sits on and assigning Trk trunking talkgroups in a scan list assigned to that conventional channel. Thats all it is. Its as simple as that. The radio sits on a conventional channel assigned to a scan list filled with trunking talkgroups. You can set the scan system search time to the max which is 255 and the radio will listen the control channel all day long for channel grants on the talkgroups in the scan list

The thing not done properly is this "tech" apparently programs radios without the system admin knowing what they are doing. Your radio could have been all fine and dandy in its original format if the system admin had allowed it. Thats why this is weird. So this tech is apparently in contact with the system admin and authorized to program radios, set you up with a rogue radio

 

[clbsquared]

With NAF (aka NAS) the goal is to stay parked on a conventional channel and have the talkgroups slaved to a scanlist assigned to the conventional channel. Your radio is set to “auto scan” and the channel knob selector will only select conventional channels so that you don’t accidentally turn the channel knob and end up parked on a talkgroup. With this method, your radio does not have access to the talkgroups. Only conventional channels and zones.
What agency are you wanting to listen too? Also, I’m curious to know if this “tech” programmed your radio out of the goodness of his heart or if he charged you money for it.

 

[merlin]

absolutely, I know when he told me he had created an ID for it. I was like “ohhhh” didn’t ask for that but if the radio doesn’t have an ID, will it still be able to be on the trunked system and not affiliate is what I’m asking.

your only in violation of FCC if it you transmits. two is listening in to secure encryption

Some few system admins are sending NUKE codes to radios with 00-01 IDs. I shoved mine up near the top that never shows up with DSD+.

 

[merlin]

Sounds like a case of programming the radio as TG/AG Disabled if that's what you mean by TX inhibit instead of the actual switch position, which doesn't mean it won't affiliate, it just means you cannot transmit on that talkgroup. Sounds like the "tech" guy didn't get official authorization from the admin. Weird situation. Tech guy is making up unit IDs? So what's his plan to reprogram this radio? To get a legitimate ID? Weird, why didn't he do this in the first place if hes programming radios and apparently in contact with the admin. Weird

Hey, I've a systems question for the group, I've heard an inhibited radio will turn on to a blank screen, or he'd get reg refused or something, what's going on with this guys radio? It not displaying that behavior, the admin has "killed it" but it only displays out of range?

That is basically how a system will NUKE a given RID. Means no talkum, no hearum until the radio is reprogrammed.
This guy could be in for a bad hair day.

 

[wa8pyr]

Hey, I've a systems question for the group, I've heard an inhibited radio will turn on to a blank screen, or he'd get reg refused or something, what's going on with this guys radio? It not displaying that behavior, the admin has "killed it" but it only displays out of range?

Yes, an inhibited radio will go to a blank screen.

When a radio is turned on, it will send a quick signal with it's Radio ID to the system (Registration); if it's accepted, it sends another brief signal telling what talkgroup it's on (Affiliation). If the Radio ID is removed from the system the radio will say "Reg Refused" and simply won't do anything. If it's been set to inhibited in the system, that first registration attempt will kill the radio and it will go to a blank screen until it's set to uninhibited.

What's probably happened is that because the ID was removed from the system, the radio will no longer register with/affiliate to the system. Only time I've ever seen a radio say "Out of Range" is when it can't find an active control channel.

To the OP: I concur with the others about treading carefully when it comes to the tech who set you up (he's lucky he still has a job); IDs can be set up in the system for RX only, so since you're now on the radar officially, your best bet is to try and get it approved to be added to the system officially for receive only use, if you have a legitimate reason. If you're a member of a legitimate NGO or media organization you might get lucky.

 

[fog]

the goal was to program the radio to “LISTEN ONLY”

the unit has zones and channels

I don’t know why he programmed in an ID on the radio. thats what affiliated the unit with the system. bringing us back to square one. I was thinking that he could make it “non-affiliate” this entire time.

he’s going to remove the unit ID from the radio.

the Question I have for you guys, will clearing the radio’s unit ID make it to where I can stay parked on a talkgroup and not affiliate ?

we’re also going to meet with admin later this week to see the proper routes to go about this.

like some have mentioned above that maybe something wasn’t done properly. I’m not sure if it’s a way you can disable the TX INHIBIT, essentially disabling the PTT button, making it JUST a receive only unit if that’s possible could some educate me

Others have captured this well, but just to rephrase the issue -- although you're trying to do something innocent that seems simple, it's not really something that Motorola radios are designed to support. A Motorola radio programmed for a trunked system will always* try to affiliate with the trunked system, which entails it transmitting a data burst to the system. The TX Inhibit setting does not prevent this as you might expect it to.

(* Non-affiliate scan (NAS) is a dirty workaround that can keep the radio from affiliating if done right, but it's taking advantage of what I'd argue is a design quirk that happens to avoid affiliation. I don't think it's something Motorola has ever supported.)

I still think Motorola could have prevented this whole issue by supporting a true "receive-only, never affiliate" option. It won't help them sell radios, but it would keep a lot of well-intentioned folks from inadvertently affiliating with their customers' systems.

 

[wa8pyr]

I still think Motorola could have prevented this whole issue by supporting a true "receive-only, never affiliate" option. It won't help them sell radios, but it would keep a lot of well-intentioned folks from inadvertently affiliating with their customers' systems.

That's exactly what I and many others like me asked Motorola for many, many times. What we got what TG/MG Disable, which simply prevents that subscriber unit from transmitting on a particular talkgroup. Beyond that, it's a very sloppy implementation; to the radio it looks like a talkgroup on a different system, which means you're limited to Multi-System Scan.

I've never been able to figure out why every other manufacturer has it figured out except Motorola.

 

[firefighter47]

Even With it on a conventional channel with a auto scan list it seems to tx the data packet even when not parked on a tgrp.

 

[Outerdog]

Even With it on a conventional channel with a auto scan list it seems to tx the data packet even when not parked on a tgrp.

No.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

What's probably happened is that because the ID was removed from the system, the radio will no longer register with/affiliate to the system. Only time I've ever seen a radio say "Out of Range" is when it can't find an active control channel.

In this instance, the ID was removed from the database, the radio is still turning on and trying to register. It gets a reject from the system and moves on to the next control channel until it runs out of CCs it can hear and gives up. If the registration status messages to the user are disabled in the programming, he would never see that it got rejected. Until he gets his radio reprogrammed, he is STILL transmitting illegally, its just not being accepted.

OP: Keep the radio OFF until it can be reprogrammed properly, or else you are transmitting EVERY time you turn it on and occasionally it will try to register again if its left powered on. The fact that the ID has been disabled in the system DOES NOT mean the radio is now legal.

As for it being a quirk, there was an early version of ASTRO25 FW that caused reaffiliation every time the radio scanned back to the trunked system from conventional. This created massive loading issues on the control channel and was disabled, thus the loophole used in NAS was born. Before they implemented this change, the system I managed was inundated with affiliation requests from the users that were sitting on conventional (i.e. swat simplex) and were scanning the swat TG on the system. We could have 30 radios all fighting to affiliate EVERY TIME the TG lit up, along with all of the normal traffic the control channel was processing. This created a condition where the control channel was too busy to process requests and led to all kinds of critical system access issues.

For the techie system geeks, this was early XTS5000 firmware on a SNSZ 3.0z Mixed Mode Simulcast.

 

[firefighter47]

In this instance, the ID was removed from the database, the radio is still turning on and trying to register. It gets a reject from the system and moves on to the next control channel until it runs out of CCs it can hear and gives up. If the registration status messages to the user are disabled in the programming, he would never see that it got rejected. Until he gets his radio reprogrammed, he is STILL transmitting illegally, its just not being accepted.

OP: Keep the radio OFF until it can be reprogrammed properly, or else you are transmitting EVERY time you turn it on and occasionally it will try to register again if its left powered on. The fact that the ID has been disabled in the system DOES NOT mean the radio is now legal.

As for it being a quirk, there was an early version of ASTRO25 FW that caused reaffiliation every time the radio scanned back to the trunked system from conventional. This created massive loading issues on the control channel and was disabled, thus the loophole used in NAS was born. Before they implemented this change, the system I managed was inundated with affiliation requests from the users that were sitting on conventional (i.e. swat simplex) and were scanning the swat TG on the system. We could have 30 radios all fighting to affiliate EVERY TIME the TG lit up, along with all of the normal traffic the control channel was processing. This created a condition where the control channel was too busy to process requests and led to all kinds of critical system access issues.

For the techie system geeks, this was early XTS5000 firmware on a SNSZ 3.0z Mixed Mode Simulcast.

The problem that I'm running into is that when the offset is changed so that there's no way for it to connect to the control tower, there's no audio on the channel I have slaved to a tgrp. As if the radio MUST transmit data and connect to the control tower to receive any audio fron the tgrp even though the tgrp is slaved to a conv channel scan list. And I don't want it to affiliate.