Multiple Repeater Licensing Legality

[kolton5543]

Long time reader, first time poster. I'm not positive this is the best sub forum to post this so if there's a better place for it, please move it.

I volunteer for search and rescue in Arizona. We currently have a stationed repeater atop a small mountain that we use for our primary comms. Unfortunately, its in a bit of a poor location and many areas that we operate in, we dont get good sight on it. Because of this we find ourselves having to resort to simplex channels frequently and most of the time, we dont have very good luck with that either. Because of this, I'm looking into building and donating a portable repeater to our squad. Our concern is legality of doing so and nobody in our squad are radio professionals. We are entirely donation funded and our on a tight budget. Because of this, we'd like to keep our licensing to a minimum. We're curious if its legal to set up a portable public safety repeater using the same frequency but different PLs as our current stationed repeater that we currently have licensed with out having to get another license. I've poked around the FCC laws a bit but haven't managed to find a definitive answer. I know currently our radios are programmed with our main channel on the repeater, two simplex channels that we also have licensed, two other simplex channels that are utilize the same frequencies as the main repeater with different PLs, and one other "simplex" channel that's configured in cross mode to allow us to simplex to the main channel but bypass the repeater, if any of that make sense. I would like to be able to set up the portable repeater either on that last channel and just remove its ability to communicate to the main on it all together, or even setup the portable to transmit the same frequency and PL as the main repeater so any comms on the portable can still be heard on the main. If at all legally possible. Hopefully that all makes sense. Ill break it down further if needed. If anybody can share some knowledge on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[prcguy]

You cannot legally use a licensed simplex frequency as part of a repeater pair. You can get a license for a portable repeater on the same frequency and use a different tone, or on a different frequency. Just call a frequency coordination company to get things started. It will be cheaper to modify the existing license to add a portable repeater than going for a new license.

A commercial repeater would have to meet FCC Part 90 specs and you should either buy a commercial repeater (used is fine) or have a professional put one together for you, otherwise I doubt if it will be done legally.

 

[jeepsandradios]

First thing I would do is call APCO and get them started on the license. That will take longer than equipment. The only issue with current frequencies will be the split/band. If its VHF and close you need a big duplexer. If its VHF with a big split smaller may work. Part 90 is what you will need as @prcguy stated. Depending on band those are pretty easy to find for what your looking for.

Little more info would help but this should get you in the ballpark.

 

[kolton5543]

I'm not concerned about the hardware side of things. I'm well aware of how to build a repeater and the the part 90 compliance concern. I haven't picked out any hardware yet simply because I don't want to waste time doing so just to get denied the approval to deploy it. I'm simply concerned about the licensing to use it.

Prcguy, you mentioned adding it to our current repeater license. That's essentially what I would like to do. I'm not interested in using it with any of our licensed simplex frequencies. I think ideally it would would have the same Tx and Rx frequencies as our current repeater, just with different PL tones so it doesn't interfere. The idea of using it to partially connect with our current repeater was just an idea to expand comms even further but isn't absolutely necessary. In fact, it may be a good idea to actually not do that simply to prevent congestion on the main channel. But, if I understand you correctly, it is legally possible to use it under our current repeater license and on the same frequencies, but just not as it sits. We will have to modify the license a little to add this repeater. Is that correct?

 

[prcguy]

If your current repeater is licensed at a specific location then you would need to modify the license for another repeater that is mobile. Its been awhile since I've done licensing but I think a fixed repeater has an FB type designation and mobile would be MO. Maybe someone else can verify that.

I'm not concerned about the hardware side of things. I'm well aware of how to build a repeater and the the part 90 compliance concern. I haven't picked out any hardware yet simply because I don't want to waste time doing so just to get denied the approval to deploy it. I'm simply concerned about the licensing to use it.

Prcguy, you mentioned adding it to our current repeater license. That's essentially what I would like to do. I'm not interested in using it with any of our licensed simplex frequencies. I think ideally it would would have the same Tx and Rx frequencies as our current repeater, just with different PL tones so it doesn't interfere. The idea of using it to partially connect with our current repeater was just an idea to expand comms even further but isn't absolutely necessary. In fact, it may be a good idea to actually not do that simply to prevent congestion on the main channel. But, if I understand you correctly, it is legally possible to use it under our current repeater license and on the same frequencies, but just not as it sits. We will have to modify the license a little to add this repeater. Is that correct?

 

[mmckenna]

I'm simply concerned about the licensing to use it.

Based off what you are saying, it sounds like an itinerant license is what you are looking for. Itinerants don't need frequency coordination, so that cuts a lot of your cost. Itinerants can be licensed statewide, nationwide, etc.
Drawback to the itinerants is that you have no protection from other users.

I think ideally it would would have the same Tx and Rx frequencies as our current repeater, just with different PL tones so it doesn't interfere. The idea of using it to partially connect with our current repeater was just an idea to expand comms even further but isn't absolutely necessary. In fact, it may be a good idea to actually not do that simply to prevent congestion on the main channel. But, if I understand you correctly, it is legally possible to use it under our current repeater license and on the same frequencies, but just not as it sits. We will have to modify the license a little to add this repeater. Is that correct?

You likely will not be permitted to add new locations to your existing license without frequency coordination and modifications to the license. The itinerants I mentioned above is the 'easy' way to do this as they do not require coordination, but will require proper licensing.

 

[mmckenna]

If your agency is sponsored by a city/county/state public safety agency, you may be able to look into getting permission/licensed to uses one of the VHF TAC repeater pairs.

That would at least be useful as others would be able to use it if needed, and maybe cost sharing could be done.

There are limitations on who can use the interop frequencies, however and you would want to talk to your state OES SWIC (StateWide Interoperability Coordinator). They would be able to tell you if your group would qualify and would likely help with the licensing side of things.

 

[kolton5543]

If your current repeater is licensed at a specific location then you would need to modify the license for another repeater that is mobile. Its been awhile since I've done licensing but I think a fixed repeater has an FB type designation and mobile would be MO. Maybe someone else can verify that.

Ok. Cool. Thats pretty much what I needed to know. Maybe I'll give APCO a call and see what they say. I'm sure they can give me all the info I need. I'm just trying to educate myself the best I can before I pitch the idea to our squad. I've dealt with this kinda stuff a little in the amateur world but never in public safety. We used to have some guys on the squad that knew what they were doing and they are the ones who originally took care of this kinda stuff but that was in the 90s and they have since moved on. I've slowly been taking on more and more responsibilities in the squad and managing our radio equipment is one of them

I appreciate the help. Thank you much

 

[jeepsandradios]

Our SAR team did what @mmckenna mentioned. We built 2 TAC repeaters on a VTAC repeater pair. One mid power and one low power. We already were licensed on the frequencies as part of our public safety plan and licensing we did a few years ago. In working with APCO on all our licensing we did discuss using the same repeater pair as our main site in a temporary location. Looking at the old application they submitted it showed FB2T. In the end we grabbed another frequency to use at our tower and dropped that designation. Not sure if they still use that term or not. Also our FB2T was on the application for 25 watts on VHF. That was well below our main license power at our tower site. The biggest hassle is the fees. Back then it was $250 per channel. VHF stuff cost us a bunch.

 

[petnrdx]

Lots of decent suggestions. Here's mine: Remember if you do a lot of adding freqs, you LIKELY will incur costs. And remember that
all your subscriber radios (mobiles, bases if any and portables) will have to be reprogrammed. And so will any mutual aid or other
assistance agencies need to reprogram. Seems to me adding FB2T and coordination ON your current freq pair to your current license
has the fewest pitfalls. Getting your responders "spread" out on other RX frequencies might be a recipe for disaster. KISS principal.

 

[prcguy]

If you license a portable repeater on the same pair as the existing you can use a different input tone on the portable but keep the same output tone. That way everyone will hear both repeaters without having to touch their radios. You can have a different beep tone or something to identify the new repeater is on air. Of course you can only use one repeater at a time when on the same freq.

Lots of decent suggestions. Here's mine: Remember if you do a lot of adding freqs, you LIKELY will incur costs. And remember that
all your subscriber radios (mobiles, bases if any and portables) will have to be reprogrammed. And so will any mutual aid or other
assistance agencies need to reprogram. Seems to me adding FB2T and coordination ON your current freq pair to your current license
has the fewest pitfalls. Getting your responders "spread" out on other RX frequencies might be a recipe for disaster. KISS principal.

 

[WB5UOM]

I think I would call IMSA. talk to Wendy or Bob. then you can compare pricing and speed.

 

[kolton5543]

Based off what you are saying, it sounds like an itinerant license is what you are looking for. Itinerants don't need frequency coordination, so that cuts a lot of your cost. Itinerants can be licensed statewide, nationwide, etc.
Drawback to the itinerants is that you have no protection from other users.

I think that might be a good option. I didn't think about the business pool just being were technically not a business. We do operate directly under our county sheriffs department and are a non-profit. I don't know if any of that will play a part in that option.

You likely will not be permitted to add new locations to your existing license without frequency coordination and modifications to the license. The itinerants I mentioned above is the 'easy' way to do this as they do not require coordination, but will require proper licensing.

I don't mind having to get a coordinator involved if necessary however I'm just shooting for the cheapest and simplest option. The the cheaper and easier it is, the more likely it is to get approval.

If your agency is sponsored by a city/county/state public safety agency, you may be able to look into getting permission/licensed to uses one of the VHF TAC repeater pairs.

That would at least be useful as others would be able to use it if needed, and maybe cost sharing could be done.

There are limitations on who can use the interop frequencies, however and you would want to talk to your state OES SWIC (StateWide Interoperability Coordinator). They would be able to tell you if your group would qualify and would likely help with the licensing side of things.

That is also an excellent option. As I mentioned before, we operate under our county Sheriffs Department so gaining approval for this route would likely be easiest. Possibly even some funding if I can prove that it can benefit the Sheriffs Department in some way too. I would probably pitch the idea that the repeater could be co-owned or owned outright by the Sheriffs the Department as long as we get to be the primary holders and users of it while they can use it when necessary. If its like anything else they own but let us use, they will basically never use it except for maybe during some major disaster. I will definitely run that option by our squads president and probably our under sheriff and see what they say about it first. That just may be the route I take.

You pitched some great ideas. Thank you much.

Our SAR team did what @mmckenna mentioned. We built 2 TAC repeaters on a VTAC repeater pair. One mid power and one low power. We already were licensed on the frequencies as part of our public safety plan and licensing we did a few years ago. In working with APCO on all our licensing we did discuss using the same repeater pair as our main site in a temporary location. Looking at the old application they submitted it showed FB2T. In the end we grabbed another frequency to use at our tower and dropped that designation. Not sure if they still use that term or not. Also our FB2T was on the application for 25 watts on VHF. That was well below our main license power at our tower site. The biggest hassle is the fees. Back then it was $250 per channel. VHF stuff cost us a bunch.

I'll probably get with our Sheriffs department and see what it is we currently have licensed. Might get lucky like you and be able to jump on whats already there.

Lots of decent suggestions. Here's mine: Remember if you do a lot of adding freqs, you LIKELY will incur costs. And remember that
all your subscriber radios (mobiles, bases if any and portables) will have to be reprogrammed. And so will any mutual aid or other
assistance agencies need to reprogram. Seems to me adding FB2T and coordination ON your current freq pair to your current license
has the fewest pitfalls. Getting your responders "spread" out on other RX frequencies might be a recipe for disaster. KISS principal.

That is true. I understand that this certainly wont be a free thing to do. Just simply looking for the simplest and least expensive option. We usually have Canyon State Radios do all of our programming. We will likely still go through them and just send our radios to them in batches so we don't have major down time. Would hat to have a call out while all our radios are out for programming. However, we did recently acquire a new member that does do radio programming for a living and has access to Motorolas commercial CPS software. Ill have to pitch it to the squad but its possible we could task him with programming them. If anything, I'll likely get with him and see about trying to better organize our program list in the radios. They've been through a few different changes over the years and have become a bit difficult to find the channel we want to use. For example, for our SAR specific channels, we just skip channels 2,3, and 6. I assume what ever frequencies we used on them back in the day, we decided to drop at some point and just simply deleted them from the programming. To add to it, our older radios are not organized and zoned the same as our more recent ones and the 6 new mobiles we just got, are even different from all of them. So it'd be nice to get them all on exactly the same programs so any of our members don't have to relearn how to use the radio anytime they are issued one.

If you license a portable repeater on the same pair as the existing you can use a different input tone on the portable but keep the same output tone. That way everyone will hear both repeaters without having to touch their radios. You can have a different beep tone or something to identify the new repeater is on air. Of course you can only use one repeater at a time when on the same freq.

I like that and I briefly mentioned it in an earlier post. I didn't think of using an audible tone to identify the repeater. For sure, if we go that direction, I will be sure that option gets applied.

I think I would call IMSA. talk to Wendy or Bob. then you can compare pricing and speed.

I am not familiar with IMSA. A quick google search turned up some race car announcement company thing and I feel like that's not what you're referring to. Could you clarify at all?

 

[mmckenna]

That is also an excellent option. As I mentioned before, we operate under our county Sheriffs Department so gaining approval for this route would likely be easiest. Possibly even some funding if I can prove that it can benefit the Sheriffs Department in some way too. I would probably pitch the idea that the repeater could be co-owned or owned outright by the Sheriffs the Department as long as we get to be the primary holders and users of it while they can use it when necessary. If its like anything else they own but let us use, they will basically never use it except for maybe during some major disaster. I will definitely run that option by our squads president and probably our under sheriff and see what they say about it first. That just may be the route I take.

You pitched some great ideas. Thank you much.

If you are under the sheriffs office, that's the way to go.
Funding for an interoperability portable repeater might qualify for grant funding. Find out if the SO has someone who does grant writing and see what you can do.
There would probably be a benefit to your group having it and skilled in its setup/use. The sheriffs office could have the SAR team set it up when needed. I don't know where you are located, but any county with a large rural area and/or rugged terrain might really benefit from a tactical/portable repeater setup.

Specifically have them check with the state. I got $60K in grant funds from our state OES for HF radio gear. Just requires someone filling out the paperwork correctly.

I am not familiar with IMSA. A quick google search turned up some race car announcement company thing and I feel like that's not what you're referring to. Could you clarify at all?

Frequency Coordination - IMSA - International Municipal Signal Association

www.imsasafety.org

International Municipal Signal Association. They do frequency coordination.

 

[kolton5543]

If you are under the sheriffs office, that's the way to go.
Funding for an interoperability portable repeater might qualify for grant funding. Find out if the SO has someone who does grant writing and see what you can do.
There would probably be a benefit to your group having it and skilled in its setup/use. The sheriffs office could have the SAR team set it up when needed. I don't know where you are located, but any county with a large rural area and/or rugged terrain might really benefit from a tactical/portable repeater setup.

Specifically have them check with the state. I got $60K in grant funds from our state OES for HF radio gear. Just requires someone filling out the paperwork correctly.

I will definitely check with them. Where we are located, we are often in some pretty rough terrain and down in canyons. Our SAR repeater rarely reaches to the area we are in. The Sheriffs Department has a couple repeaters in a far better location, but we rarely get to use them. A portable would would pretty much remedy every problem we have with comms. Especially when we have a team in a canyon. The grants are a good idea. I'm sure the Sheriffs Department or the county has somebody that can write up some grants. We actually have a squad member who was our training officer but is starting to move towards our public relations has been getting into grant writing. She has been doing a phenomenal job and I'm sure she can write something up for us.

Frequency Coordination - IMSA - International Municipal Signal Association

www.imsasafety.org

International Municipal Signal Association. They do frequency coordination.

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[GlobalNorth]

As an aside, please check your radio service provider as Motorola Solutions has shaken up the Arizona market for radio systems. Canyon State is now Canyon State Wireless and deals only in MotoTRBO and business products. They aren't even in Phoenix any more - they are in Chandler, Globe, Sierra Vista, and some where else.

Aircomm ultimately became the big M dealer in Maricopa County and then got the APX radio franchise in AZ taken away - they can only sell them in UT.

If your radios are P25, call the MCSO radio shop near the Durango facility. If they are MotoTRBO or analog... I don't know who to recommend now. Motorola keeps roiling the AZ market every several years.