It is Harris's implementation of CQPSK. Not sure what the W stands for, maybe someone else can chime in...
New Oakland system
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It is Harris's implementation of CQPSK. Not sure what the W stands for, maybe someone else can chime in...
I'm guessing the W stands for "Wide." i.e. Wide area => simulcast? It's worth a try.
I'd really love to get my hands on the P25 C4FM/CQPSK standard that defines the Linear Simulcast Modulation (LSM) / WCQPSK modulation, called ANSI/TIA-102.CAAA-C, but I don't have $281.00 to spend solely for educational purposes.
OaklandP25 said:
OaklandP25, thank you very much for getting involved in the RR scanning community! We really appreciate this info and my fellow database admin kma371 beat me to the punch in entering your updates (I fixed the modulation typo to "WCQPSK").
I have followed your system since its implementation and have many questions, but my biggest ones are:
1.) Is the Fire Station 28 site a Harris VDOC (Voice & Data on Control) site? Are you using the Harris microMASTR cell site, or something similar? Since this isn't part of the main simulcast site, I am guessing it uses traditional C4FM modulation in lieu of WCQPSK?
2.) Are the separate console patch talkgroups (65xxx decimal range) here to stay? Was that programmed into the consoles to allow for backwards compatibility with the EDACS system, or does Harris P25 also create a separate talkgroup when two existing talkgroups are patched? (I am familiar with the 'supergroup' multiselect and patch method employed by Motorola, but don't have any professional exposure to Harris P25 systems).
3.) Were the potential AT&T cellular interference issues - which made the news some months back - ever resolved?
Thanks again for contributing here. There are actually quite a few public safety communications professionals lurking this forum, and we're happy to present the most accurate information possible in the database on your behalf.
AdminLaw
Member
I wonder if the reorganization of the OPD patrol districts from two to five will cause a realignment in their radio plan.
stingray327
Member
Can you hear Oakland PD from San Francisco?
AdminLaw
Member
I occasionally pick up OPD Patrol 1 on my Uniden 396T, but not often. I often get Berkeley PD and UCB PD on EBRCS with a PSR-800 - but not OPD. (I am in usually the Sunset and use a Radio Shack 800 Mhz antenna.)
I hope that Oakland eventually gives up on its "we go it alone - cost and results be damned" philosophy and moves to EBRCS.
stingray327
Member
Back in the 80's I used to have a Lafayette Multi-band radio with tuning knobs. I picked up OPD on the Sunset beach when they were on the 155.000 freqs. and this was on an indoor antenna attached to radio.
Here's an article about Oakland's Communications Infrastructure improvements. I find it interesting they report that non of these improvements have anything to do weather or not they join EBRCS even though I large portion of the requested funds go to improve the existing communications sites.
MissionCritical Communications, Radio Resource International, and Public Safety Report - wireless voice and data communications for mobile, remote and public safety operations
Oakland needs to stay off of the EBRCS system so I think that this is money well spent, Oakland needs to correct mistakes they made when they didn't have any project management when they purchased the Harris upgrade. This is a good start.
MissionCritical Communications, Radio Resource International, and Public Safety Report - wireless voice and data communications for mobile, remote and public safety operations
Oakland needs to stay off of the EBRCS system so I think that this is money well spent, Oakland needs to correct mistakes they made when they didn't have any project management when they purchased the Harris upgrade. This is a good start.
With all due respect, that doesn't make any sense. Why does Oakland need to stay off EBRCSA?
I just read the report to the city council, titled "Public Safety Technology Needs" (May 31, 2013). I would highly recommend everyone give it a read by going to the following link and clicking "View Report."
City of Oakland - File #: 12-0569
The Background section lists the following proposed changes:
Elsewhere in the report, it states:
This statement doesn't seem to add up with what's being asked. While no one will argue that seismic and equipment upgrades are necessary at the 911 communication centers, $1,450,000 is being asked to essentially rebuild the shelters, back up generators and power supply systems at Oakland's three major P25 sites (Gwin, APL and Seneca).
Now look at the East Bay Regional Communication System coverage map:
http://www.ebrcsa.org/SitePDFs/EBRCS_updated Coverage map_E_1mile.pdf
The Alameda County Northwest Simulcast zone is already covered with sites at UC Berkeley (above LBL), Skyline Reservoir, Seneca Reservoir and the Glenn Dyer Jail. This completely overlaps with Oakland's coverage area. So my question is, why would Oakland need to spend almost $1.5 million upgrading their radio sites if they will become unnecessary and obsolete upon joining EBRCSA? And why is the DIT claiming the improvements are necessary regardless of whether the city joins EBRCSA, when clearly the city would have no reason to maintain ownership of these sites upon joining?
Does DIT have any intention of joining EBRCSA? Are they trying to hold onto the existing sites to keep the EDACS system running for DPW, or as a contingency if an EBRCSA deal goes south?
Finally, it's important to note that rebuilding the structural enclosures, power distribution and backup generators at each site will do absolutely nothing to improve the existing P25 communication system issues, so Oakland will be right back to where they started. My question is, are these infrastructure improvements actually warranted if they're just going to have to spend even more money improving the P25 system, or join EBRCSA? No matter how you look at the economics, EBRCSA is the cheaper and more logical solution at this point.
I just read the report to the city council, titled "Public Safety Technology Needs" (May 31, 2013). I would highly recommend everyone give it a read by going to the following link and clicking "View Report."
City of Oakland - File #: 12-0569
The Background section lists the following proposed changes:
Elsewhere in the report, it states:
This statement doesn't seem to add up with what's being asked. While no one will argue that seismic and equipment upgrades are necessary at the 911 communication centers, $1,450,000 is being asked to essentially rebuild the shelters, back up generators and power supply systems at Oakland's three major P25 sites (Gwin, APL and Seneca).
Now look at the East Bay Regional Communication System coverage map:
http://www.ebrcsa.org/SitePDFs/EBRCS_updated Coverage map_E_1mile.pdf
The Alameda County Northwest Simulcast zone is already covered with sites at UC Berkeley (above LBL), Skyline Reservoir, Seneca Reservoir and the Glenn Dyer Jail. This completely overlaps with Oakland's coverage area. So my question is, why would Oakland need to spend almost $1.5 million upgrading their radio sites if they will become unnecessary and obsolete upon joining EBRCSA? And why is the DIT claiming the improvements are necessary regardless of whether the city joins EBRCSA, when clearly the city would have no reason to maintain ownership of these sites upon joining?
Does DIT have any intention of joining EBRCSA? Are they trying to hold onto the existing sites to keep the EDACS system running for DPW, or as a contingency if an EBRCSA deal goes south?
Finally, it's important to note that rebuilding the structural enclosures, power distribution and backup generators at each site will do absolutely nothing to improve the existing P25 communication system issues, so Oakland will be right back to where they started. My question is, are these infrastructure improvements actually warranted if they're just going to have to spend even more money improving the P25 system, or join EBRCSA? No matter how you look at the economics, EBRCSA is the cheaper and more logical solution at this point.
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EBRCSA is a loaded political hot potato that has been chugging the Motorola Cool Aid.
Oakland would have to contribute millions to join EBRCSA AND pay monthly $40 per radio in subscriber fees. It would be like renting vs. owning but you would have to pay a big non refundable deposit to move in. I really don't see the logic in tossing away a good, But poorly designed and engineered system. I would rather see Oakland spend the money they would otherwise pay EBRCSA and invest in fixing their own Harris system.
Last I heard when Oakland pulled out of EBRCSA they took with them their channels so I would venture to guess that the EBRCSA system would not have the capacity to handle Oakland which as everyone knows is a busy town. Someone can chime in if I'm wrong. Both systems only have 3 to 4 sites covering all of Oakland which is less than what they really need. The APL site is a transmit site downtown Oakland and the closest EBRCSA transmit site is in the Oakland hills I believe. I service cities that are a fraction of the size of Oakland that have more receive sites. Coverage maps are nice but they are not an absolute in the real world. Things like portable radios being wedged between the floor of a bar and a cop wrestling a suspect would tend to attenuate a signal significantly.
Oakland spent over 18M on their Harris system including (some) subscriber units and although the new Harris radios would work on a Motorola system many of Oakland's neighbors have elected to use a Motorola proprietary encryption method. See this article.
Bay Area non-interoperable P25 radio system | Daryl Jones' Weblog
Oakland needs to eat a piece of humble pie and fix their first mistake, not make Two mistakes.
Oakland would have to contribute millions to join EBRCSA AND pay monthly $40 per radio in subscriber fees. It would be like renting vs. owning but you would have to pay a big non refundable deposit to move in. I really don't see the logic in tossing away a good, But poorly designed and engineered system. I would rather see Oakland spend the money they would otherwise pay EBRCSA and invest in fixing their own Harris system.
Last I heard when Oakland pulled out of EBRCSA they took with them their channels so I would venture to guess that the EBRCSA system would not have the capacity to handle Oakland which as everyone knows is a busy town. Someone can chime in if I'm wrong. Both systems only have 3 to 4 sites covering all of Oakland which is less than what they really need. The APL site is a transmit site downtown Oakland and the closest EBRCSA transmit site is in the Oakland hills I believe. I service cities that are a fraction of the size of Oakland that have more receive sites. Coverage maps are nice but they are not an absolute in the real world. Things like portable radios being wedged between the floor of a bar and a cop wrestling a suspect would tend to attenuate a signal significantly.
Oakland spent over 18M on their Harris system including (some) subscriber units and although the new Harris radios would work on a Motorola system many of Oakland's neighbors have elected to use a Motorola proprietary encryption method. See this article.
Bay Area non-interoperable P25 radio system | Daryl Jones' Weblog
Oakland needs to eat a piece of humble pie and fix their first mistake, not make Two mistakes.
Without a cited source, I always stop reading when I see these words.
You do realize that Alameda County SO also demands suitable radio coverage in the Oakland area. ALCO SO, of course, operates on EBRCS. Additional immediate neighboring agencies include ALCO Fire, Alameda PD, San Leandro PD, Berkeley PD... to name a few. Most of them also would prefer to enjoy unattenuated signals from their portable radios!
For your edification, sites on the ALCO NW Cell include Skyline Reservoir, UC Berkeley, Seneca, and (amazingly not located in the Oakland Hills but in Downtown) the Glenn Dyer jail building.
You and the article are ignoring the fact that encryption is not required for interoperability and that while most (all) agencies currently operating on EBRCS are, by and large, doing so in the clear, most have one or more encrypted talk groups available for their use.
Although I'm familiar with the EBCRCS user fees, I once again am aching for a citation for "pay millions".
Sheesh...
Actually it would cost $460,000 to join EBRCSA. For the $18 million they've invested in their current radio system, they could have joined EBRCSA and paid for 16 years of use.
Oakland did not pull out of EBRCSA; they never joined in the first place. The only thing they took with them is federal grant money, which was intended for REGIONAL communications systems. Despite this, EBRCSA was built to accomodate Oakland in case they decided to join later.
EBRCSA uses a 4-site, 16-channel simulcast cell to provide coverage in Oakland. By comparison, the City of Oakland's own system is a 3-site, 10-channel simulcast system. EBRCSA has a site in downtown Oakland at the Glenn Dyer Jail.
EBRCSA policy specifically states that main dispatch talkgroups should never be encrypted. In addition, encrypted talkgroups that are shared by multiple agencies must use AES (national standard) encryption and not the ADP (motorola proprietary) encryption discussed in your article.
thursdasy
Member
Does anyone know what handhelds OPD is using?
I'm interested in knowing what brand and model officers are using. I'm assuming they're Harris radios, but if someone could confirm with model that would be great!
EDIT:
After some research I believe I found a table from document: http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca1/groups/cityadministrator/documents/agenda/oak040293.pdf which has all the radios used (see attachment).
Can someone confirm?
I'm interested in knowing what brand and model officers are using. I'm assuming they're Harris radios, but if someone could confirm with model that would be great!
EDIT:
After some research I believe I found a table from document: http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca1/groups/cityadministrator/documents/agenda/oak040293.pdf which has all the radios used (see attachment).
Can someone confirm?
Attachments
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I've seen mostly Harris P7200 portables.
OaklandP25
Member
ANSWERS
My apologies to all for the typo, it was quite a long day when I typed that previous message (as most days are lately) and you are correct, it is indeed WCQPSK.
A couple of answers to your questions:
The Fire Station 28 site is a VDOC system and it operates in C4FM
The patched talkgroups ID's are permanent and are created on the fly when we create a patch.
The migration from EDACS to P25 was performed using a product called EDACS IP Gateway. We still have it but it is not active at the moment. It will be reactivated for the next migration of EDACS users to P25 for their respective talkgroups, but will not be turned on system-wide.
The post-rebanding cellular interference our users experience is constantly monitored so that we can identify the cause and notify the carrier. We work collaboratively with the cellular carriers on mitigating it once we find the effected area and generally have it resolved within 48 to 72 hours.
My apologies to all for the typo, it was quite a long day when I typed that previous message (as most days are lately) and you are correct, it is indeed WCQPSK.
A couple of answers to your questions:
The Fire Station 28 site is a VDOC system and it operates in C4FM
The patched talkgroups ID's are permanent and are created on the fly when we create a patch.
The migration from EDACS to P25 was performed using a product called EDACS IP Gateway. We still have it but it is not active at the moment. It will be reactivated for the next migration of EDACS users to P25 for their respective talkgroups, but will not be turned on system-wide.
The post-rebanding cellular interference our users experience is constantly monitored so that we can identify the cause and notify the carrier. We work collaboratively with the cellular carriers on mitigating it once we find the effected area and generally have it resolved within 48 to 72 hours.
I'm guessing the W stands for "Wide." i.e. Wide area => simulcast? It's worth a try.
I'd really love to get my hands on the P25 C4FM/CQPSK standard that defines the Linear Simulcast Modulation (LSM) / WCQPSK modulation, called ANSI/TIA-102.CAAA-C, but I don't have $281.00 to spend solely for educational purposes.
OaklandP25, thank you very much for getting involved in the RR scanning community! We really appreciate this info and my fellow database admin kma371 beat me to the punch in entering your updates (I fixed the modulation typo to "WCQPSK").
I have followed your system since its implementation and have many questions, but my biggest ones are:
1.) Is the Fire Station 28 site a Harris VDOC (Voice & Data on Control) site? Are you using the Harris microMASTR cell site, or something similar? Since this isn't part of the main simulcast site, I am guessing it uses traditional C4FM modulation in lieu of WCQPSK?
2.) Are the separate console patch talkgroups (65xxx decimal range) here to stay? Was that programmed into the consoles to allow for backwards compatibility with the EDACS system, or does Harris P25 also create a separate talkgroup when two existing talkgroups are patched? (I am familiar with the 'supergroup' multiselect and patch method employed by Motorola, but don't have any professional exposure to Harris P25 systems).
3.) Were the potential AT&T cellular interference issues - which made the news some months back - ever resolved?
Thanks again for contributing here. There are actually quite a few public safety communications professionals lurking this forum, and we're happy to present the most accurate information possible in the database on your behalf.
Can you tell us when the next migration of EDACS users will occur? It seems like parking enforcement and public works are the only users remaining on the EDACS system; will it be shut down once those users transition to the P25 system?
Thank you for your participation in these forums!
OaklandP25
Member
We don't have any active projects to migrate new users over to P25 at this time. The City still has several operational work groups who utilize the EDACS system including Parking Enforcement, the Oakland Unified School District, Public Works Agency, and Parking Enforcement.
As you may already be aware, the City is in the process of analyzing the EBRCSA system as an alternative to continuing to operate the existing P25 system. We anticipate that after this analysis is complete, a long-term strategy and migration plan for all of our users will be developed at that time.
stingray327
Member
does this mean we have to get new scanners again?
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