New user - over thinking it again :-)

[quietcropduster]

The antenna I have those claims it's for "144/430Mhz" so that should work?

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[Knoxradio]

The antenna I have those claims it's for "144/430Mhz" so that should work?

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Correct, but likely is only tuned to 450mhz, since it's for 70cm ham. Gmrs uses 462 and 467mhz.

 

[quietcropduster]

Problem is the uv5r is designed for amatuer radio, not GMRS. For GMRS you need to get an antenna tuned for those frequencies, it's usually considered the commercial model, which is typically tuned for 450-470 Mhz.

doesn't it depend on if im transmitting on 155.xxx vs 450.xxx ?

 

[Knoxradio]

doesn't it depend on if im transmitting on 155.xxx vs 450.xxx ?

There are dual band antennas, which are made for 2m (144mhz) and 70cm (440mhz), but on the 440mhz side it normally isn't tuned to transmit up to the 462/467mhz bands that GMRS use. If GMRS is your goal, a 2m/70cm antenna isn't what you are looking for. If you are a ham and wanting to primarily do 2m/70cm, but GMRS on the side then what you have will likely meet the need.. my 2 cents..

 

[quietcropduster]

There are dual band antennas, which are made for 2m (144mhz) and 70cm (440mhz), but on the 440mhz side it normally isn't tuned to transmit up to the 462/467mhz bands that GMRS use. If GMRS is your goal, a 2m/70cm antenna isn't what you are looking for. If you are a ham and wanting to primarily do 2m/70cm, but GMRS on the side then what you have will likely meet the need.. my 2 cents..

Damn I'm so confused now, off to do more research Iol

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[n1das]

My experience with GMRS is if you don't work though a repeater and a really good antenna on your home & vehicles, you might as well stick to FRS. A lot of GMRS users complain that unlicensed users wreak havoc with their repeaters.

This has been exactly my experience over the years as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using good Part 90/95 commercial gear. I have used mobiles and GMRS repeaters but the vast majority of my use of GMRS has been for local simplex type use with family and friends. I have been bitten by the digital radio bug on Amateur Radio and also want an all-digital end to end solution for my non-ham use with family and friends. This eventually led me to the DTRs and the DLRs. I'm finding from experience that I'm getting the same if not better simplex range with the DTRs compared to 4W UHF portables on GMRS, AND they are all digital and much more secure.

My g/f (now wife) and I have used NEXTEL i355 phones back in the day and we experimented with the off-network Direct Talk feature. Transmit power in DT mode with the i355 is 890mW (+29.5dBm), same as the DTR 410/550/650. The DTRs and the new DLRs use the same FHSS system as DT mode in the i355 but was coded differently (on purpose) so they are not compatible. They both operate on the old MOTOTALK platform and the differences are software only. I figure Motorola had to keep it as simple as possible for NEXTEL phone users. I suspect it may also have been evolutionary as adding features to the DTRs at some point forced an incompatibility with DT capable NEXTEL phones. The FCC certification for the DTR410 refers to the DTR410 as MOTOTALK 410 but the FCC cert for the 550/650 mentions that the MOTOTALK name was replaced with DTR.
MOTO Talk - Wikipedia

Where the DTRs beat other radios on simplex is when operating inside buildings because buildings tend to be more "open" at 900MHz compared to 462MHz/467MHz and VHF. Building penetration is better with the DTRs. The DTRs were designed specifically for on-site small business type use where businesses are located and that's inside buildings. Where the DTRs blow 4W UHF GMRS portables away is aboard cruise ships where you are essentially inside a compartmentalized metal box. The shorter wavelength signals at 900MHz reflect in and out and around the nooks and crannies of the ship where longer wavelength signals on GMRS and MURS won't. The DTR's FHSS operation effectively stirs the modes as individual hot spots and dead spots move around as the frequency hops. The reflections actually help the DTRs as the modes are stirred by the FHSS operation. People who have used DTR radios on cruise ships report having full ship coverage whereas a pair of 4W Part 90/95 commercial handhelds on GMRS had difficulty penetrating more than about 2 decks.

I have gone totally all-in with using the DTRs and DLRs. They are my replacement for GMRS/FRS and MURS for my local on-site simplex type use with family and friends because they work so well. I still have GMRS/FRS and MURS as backups and for interoperability but they are no longer my default go-to mode for my local simplex ops. A coworker recently asked my why not just use FRS? My answer was that I have already been doing that since FRS was created in 1996 and longer than that as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using good Part 90/95 commercial radios. I want an all-digital solution that's higher quality and more professional than FRS. I almost don't use analog radios at all anymore.

Motorola recently discontinued the aging DTR410 and DTR550 and replaced them with the DTR600 and DTR700 models. The DTR650 appears to still be available. The DLR series is a nice addition for users who want an ultra small and simple radio to use. Range and RF performance of the DLR series is identical to the DTRs when the DTRs use the 3.5 inch 1/4 wave antenna. The 7 inch half wave antenna for the DTRs gives the DTRs a slight advantage over the 3.5 inch 1/4 wave and the DLRs. Unless you are operating at the fringe of coverage, most users won't notice any difference.

DTR series:
DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions USA - Motorola Solutions

DLR series:
DLR Series - Motorola Solutions
DLR = Digital Lightweight Radio according to Motorola.

 

[alcahuete]

doesn't it depend on if im transmitting on 155.xxx vs 450.xxx ?

Are you licensed to transmit on those frequencies? Yes, it does matter. The ham antennas (144/430 MHz) will usually work fine at 450.xxx, but not as well as an antenna that is specifically designed for that frequency. They will usually not work well at 155.xxx for anything other than receiving.

You fell into the common trap of thinking that more power is better. 4w on UHF and 1w (890mw) on 900 MHz are apples to oranges. 4w on UHF will perform better than 1w on UHF, assuming the same frequencies.

It also depends on terrain. VHF will work better in some situations, UHF will better in others, and 900 MHz, as @n1das pointed out, will better in yet other situations. The power level really has nothing to do with it unless you are making a direct comparison on the same frequency.

 

[quietcropduster]

This has been exactly my experience over the years as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using good Part 90/95 commercial gear. I have used mobiles and GMRS repeaters but the vast majority of my use of GMRS has been for local simplex type use with family and friends. I have been bitten by the digital radio bug on Amateur Radio and also want an all-digital end to end solution for my non-ham use with family and friends. This eventually led me to the DTRs and the DLRs. I'm finding from experience that I'm getting the same if not better simplex range with the DTRs compared to 4W UHF portables on GMRS, AND they are all digital and much more secure.

My g/f (now wife) and I have used NEXTEL i355 phones back in the day and we experimented with the off-network Direct Talk feature. Transmit power in DT mode with the i355 is 890mW (+29.5dBm), same as the DTR 410/550/650. The DTRs and the new DLRs use the same FHSS system as DT mode in the i355 but was coded differently (on purpose) so they are not compatible. They both operate on the old MOTOTALK platform and the differences are software only. I figure Motorola had to keep it as simple as possible for NEXTEL phone users. I suspect it may also have been evolutionary as adding features to the DTRs at some point forced an incompatibility with DT capable NEXTEL phones. The FCC certification for the DTR410 refers to the DTR410 as MOTOTALK 410 but the FCC cert for the 550/650 mentions that the MOTOTALK name was replaced with DTR.
MOTO Talk - Wikipedia

Where the DTRs beat other radios on simplex is when operating inside buildings because buildings tend to be more "open" at 900MHz compared to 462MHz/467MHz and VHF. Building penetration is better with the DTRs. The DTRs were designed specifically for on-site small business type use where businesses are located and that's inside buildings. Where the DTRs blow 4W UHF GMRS portables away is aboard cruise ships where you are essentially inside a compartmentalized metal box. The shorter wavelength signals at 900MHz reflect in and out and around the nooks and crannies of the ship where longer wavelength signals on GMRS and MURS won't. The DTR's FHSS operation effectively stirs the modes as individual hot spots and dead spots move around as the frequency hops. The reflections actually help the DTRs as the modes are stirred by the FHSS operation. People who have used DTR radios on cruise ships report having full ship coverage whereas a pair of 4W Part 90/95 commercial handhelds on GMRS had difficulty penetrating more than about 2 decks.

I have gone totally all-in with using the DTRs and DLRs. They are my replacement for GMRS/FRS and MURS for my local on-site simplex type use with family and friends because they work so well. I still have GMRS/FRS and MURS as backups and for interoperability but they are no longer my default go-to mode for my local simplex ops. A coworker recently asked my why not just use FRS? My answer was that I have already been doing that since FRS was created in 1996 and longer than that as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using good Part 90/95 commercial radios. I want an all-digital solution that's higher quality and more professional than FRS. I almost don't use analog radios at all anymore.

Motorola recently discontinued the aging DTR410 and DTR550 and replaced them with the DTR600 and DTR700 models. The DTR650 appears to still be available. The DLR series is a nice addition for users who want an ultra small and simple radio to use. Range and RF performance of the DLR series is identical to the DTRs when the DTRs use the 3.5 inch 1/4 wave antenna. The 7 inch half wave antenna for the DTRs gives the DTRs a slight advantage over the 3.5 inch 1/4 wave and the DLRs. Unless you are operating at the fringe of coverage, most users won't notice any difference.

DTR series:
DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions USA - Motorola Solutions

DLR series:
DLR Series - Motorola Solutions
DLR = Digital Lightweight Radio according to Motorola.

It's funny u me tion the DLR series. I use to work loss prevention at a mall, we used those exact radios. Swear I could 2 miles range easily out of them.

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[n1das]

It's funny u me tion the DLR series. I use to work loss prevention at a mall, we used those exact radios. Swear I could 2 miles range easily out of them.

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That's been my experience too. You know what to expect with DTRs and the old i355 phones in DT mode. RF range and performance with the DLRs is identical to the DTRs with the 3.5 inch 1/4 wave antenna. Using the 7 inch 1/2 wave antenna on the DTRs will give the DTRs a slight advantage over the 1/4 wave antenna on the DTRs and the DLRs. Most users won't notice any difference unless they happen to be operating right at the fringe of coverage. The new DTR600 and DTR700 models come with a 1/2 wave antenna.

I assume the radios you are looking for are for local simplex type use.

To help you to not over-think it, if you want to use digital radios without having to worry about FCC licensing and want something more secure than analog radios, go for the DTRs and/or DLRs. If you want to do it on the cheap, keep your i355 phones and continue using them in DT mode. Range and performance should be identical to the DTRs and DLRs because they use the exact same system (MOTOTALK) but were coded differently. The differences are software only. I don't know if the i355's antenna is as good as what's on the DTRs. While the i355 NEXTEL phones are OLD, factory fresh new batteries for them are readily available for about $35 online. The i355 uses the same high capacity battery (1800mAh) that the DTR 410/550/650 radios use so factory fresh new batteries are readily available for them. Don't worry about being able to get new batteries for the i355 phones because they will still be available for a while.

To help you to not over-think it, if you just want to operate plain old analog radios, GMRS/FRS would be your best bet.

After getting bit by the digital radio bug, I went the DTR/DLR route for my local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. I haven't looked back because they work so well. I almost don't use analog radios anymore.

 

[quietcropduster]

So to be clear...Motorola i355s with Motorola brand fixed antenna NNTN5539A

vs

Baofeng UV5R with NA-771 antenna

These would be used in car to car communications while traveling around the smokey mountains.

I'm trying to figure out which radios would be "best." I know the Motorola i355 transmit on 902-928 Mhz band and its digital. The Baofeng is UHF/VFH 136-174/400-480 Mhz.

I know I can also get antennas for both radios that are magnetic and will stick to the roof of my car etc which should further help with the range.

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[alcahuete]

I know I can also get antennas for both radios that are magnetic and will stick to the roof of my car etc which should further help with the range.

Be careful with that. Almost all testing (including my own) indicate that the magnetic antennas for the DTR (likely i355) actually decrease performance a great deal. There are whole threads about it here.

The Baofeng with a magnetic antenna should work really well between cars.

 

[quietcropduster]

Be careful with that. Almost all testing (including my own) indicate that the magnetic antennas for the DTR (likely i355) actually decrease performance a great deal. There are whole threads about it here.

The Baofeng with a magnetic antenna should work really well between cars.

I planned to try the magnetic mount on the Baofeng. I'll heed your advise and not try on the Motorola i355.

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[alcahuete]

Don't get me wrong, it might be an improvement for the i355, I've never tried, but on the DTR series, there is a huge reduction in range.

But I would definitely try it with the Baofengs. You should have pretty good results.

 

[n1das]

Try with the Baofengs and also try the pair of i355 phones as-is, i.e., with just the phone's antenna. Also try the Baofengs with the stock antenna.


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[quietcropduster]

Try with the Baofengs and also try the pair of i355 phones as-is, i.e., with just the phone's antenna. Also try the Baofengs with the stock antenna.


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Sorry for the 6 months delay lol but i tried both the UV5R was better by a good amount however the digital signal from the i355's was more clear.

 

[quietcropduster]

I still dont feel the range is adaquet enough for my needs. I'm considering a 25w or even a 50w option. I found the below. I already have an external antenna to mount them too and could use a cigarette plug to power them. I feel it would give me the range I need. Thoughts on them?

BTECH Mini UV-25X4 or potentially the Motorola PM 400 UHF....

 

[SteveC0625]

The PM-400 pulls more amperage than is safely available at the cigarette lighter plug. It needs to be properly installed with the hot line direct to the vehicle battery + terminal with appropriate fuse within a few inches of the battery. The ground should go to a factory grounding point on the vehicle body near the battery. The ground should not be connected to the battery negative post as it may well interfere with electrical sensors.

The PM-400 is a great radio but needs the right programming cable and software.

 

[quietcropduster]

The PM-400 pulls more amperage than is safely available at the cigarette lighter plug. It needs to be properly installed with the hot line direct to the vehicle battery + terminal with appropriate fuse within a few inches of the battery. The ground should go to a factory grounding point on the vehicle body near the battery. The ground should not be connected to the battery negative post as it may well interfere with electrical sensors.

The PM-400 is a great radio but needs the right programming cable and software.

I was actually thinking the same, ive done the same with aftermarket car horns. What about the BTECH Mini UV-25X4? That only draws 25 watts.

 

[WB9YBM]

I know a lot about a little or a little about a lot. I currently have 2 Motorola FRS Radios (MH230R). I've owned them for about 2 years and the range totally blows. It's claimed at 23 miles but will barely do a mile, if that. Does not matter if its straight line of sight or through mountains. So I started to research it which brought me to this forum

My radios are "1 watt" and believe getting 5 watt radios will help increase range? However I had heard something about the federal gov't now limiting FRS radios to a 1.5 watts? I did also read that I could get my GMRS license for about $90? That allows me to have access to different radio bands?

Primary use for the radios is speaking car to car in a convoy (lead car and end car) when traveling. It's especially useful when going to Deals Gap NC aka tail of the dragon. I did find these radios which were highly rated on several customer review based websites and Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001WMFYH4/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IAZLGE4PDUE31&colid=3Q4XO3VNRL250

So I ask the powers to be of this forum, whats the best route to take to fit my needs? I'd say my max budget would be $100 all in. I'm also not opposed to buying used gear, I have yet to check out the FS section on here. Thanks for your help in advance!

What I've heard about the 1-W FRS comm is that it's intended for about a 1-mile range, which makes sense given the power limitations. GMRS, with their higher power limitations and the fact that you are allowed to use antennas that aren't fixed to the radio (like FRS), you've got the option to use a more efficient antenna.

 

[SteveC0625]

RF watts does not equal DC amperage. You will have to check the specs for that info. IMHO anything that pulls more than a couple of amps is not suitable for today’s power outlets in cars. They are no longer rated for “cigarette lighter” current draw.