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NMO mount antennas

rescue161

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Yes, I tuned both with a VNA and cut with a Dremel, but got horrible results with multiple NMO27 coils and the 49" whip (cut for best return loss/VSWR). Using the NMO30 coil and a 65" whip (also cut for best return loss/VSWR), I got significantly better results.

I was limited in my mounting options, due to existing antennas already on the roof of my pickup, so I had to mount the NMO30 on the driver's side fender (poor ground plane). I would imagine that you'd probably see a marked improvement on a Jeep, since ground planes on Jeeps are slim to none.
 
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Project25_MASTR

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Yes, I tuned both with a VNA and cut with a Dremel, but got horrible results with multiple NMO27 coils and the 49" whip (cut for best return loss/VSWR). Using the NMO30 coil and a 65" whip (also cut for best return loss/VSWR), I got significantly better results.

I was limited in my mounting options, due to existing antennas already on the roof of my pickup, so I had to mount the NMO30 on the driver's side fender (poor ground plane). I would imagine that you'd probably see a marked improvement on a Jeep, since ground planes on Jeeps are slim to none.

Jeep is such a loose term. For example, mine is an XJ Cherokee I built with my dad when I was in high school. Still runs and I keep it around because all three kids can sit in the back seat. Anyway, while I have a prime tin-top....I actually have the CB antenna mounted on the fender.
 

rescue161

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Ah, when I hear "Jeep," I think Jeep Wrangler. If the antenna is mounted on the fender, then I'd be willing to bet that you'd see an improvement using the NMO30 coil with the longer whip. In my instance, cutting the whip to 59.75" (without a spring) gave the best results. I got the same results with the spring and a slightly shorter whip, but I liked the looks without the spring. I also was wrong on the length of the longer whips. When new, they are 64" (W640 is the part number for the chrome and W640B for the black whip).

I'd also wager that you'd get better performance with the tuned longer whip, due to there being more "steel" in the air.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Ah, when I hear "Jeep," I think Jeep Wrangler. If the antenna is mounted on the fender, then I'd be willing to bet that you'd see an improvement using the NMO30 coil with the longer whip. In my instance, cutting the whip to 59.75" (without a spring) gave the best results. I got the same results with the spring and a slightly shorter whip, but I liked the looks without the spring. I also was wrong on the length of the longer whips. When new, they are 64" (W640 is the part number for the chrome and W640B for the black whip).

I'd also wager that you'd get better performance with the tuned longer whip, due to there being more "steel" in the air.

Most likely but its matched and it works for my needs (there is a roof mounted VHF 1/4 wave that gets used much more frequently).
 

spikestabber

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I was initially satisfied with my NMO27, because I got a decent match too, but once I saw the difference with the NMO30 & longer whip, I was sold.

Another bump for this config, Larsen should just sell this combo as an NMOCB but I guess they wouldn't sell as many NMO27's before people like me realize they're all but useless for CB. I was having so much canbus noise issues on my car despite perfect centre mounted drilled hole and this W640+NMO30 upgrade has allowed most signals to come in extremely clear over the noise unlike before where only the strongest ones would in most cases. I am so impressed and wish I had found this much sooner. It simply improved the signal to noise, you know when even the powerline noise under various known locations in town can be picked up much stronger too. ;)

I get like 1.1:1 on both sides, unlike before with NMO27 where 1.5:1 was the best I could get.
 

n3obl

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I was initially satisfied with my NMO27, because I got a decent match too, but once I saw the difference with the NMO30 & longer whip, I was sold.
What do you use for the longer whip? Part number would be appreciated.
 

rescue161

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Also, if you want the black whip, it is W640B. HRO seemed to be the cheapest for the stainless whips at ~$15, but they didn't have the black ones.
 

FPR1981

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I've seen some fierce debate on here about the merits of a permanently installed antenna, or Larsen NMO versus mainstream antennas like K40s or Wilson 1000's and I'm left to wonder, on the merits of performance, where does the advantage lie? We're talking about 1/4-wave antennas in a mobile application. How much "better" can better possibly be when going from a permanently installed Larsen to a larger profile magnet mount?

I own a traditional K40, a Tram 3500 (Wilson 5000 clone) and a Tram 300 (Little Wil clone). I also have a little Hustler magnet mount that's akin to a K30.

All are 1/4-wave mobile antennas. The Tram 3500 does slightly outperform the 300, based on the whip length being 57 inches, but at the end of the day, we're only talking maybe 2 S-units difference.

Where does a Larsen NMO-27 outperform any of these, and to what extent? Or is it more about the quality of the Larsen, as in longevity. My K40 is every bit of 40 years old and still works great. The mag mounts I expect won't be around forever, but they work very well.

I talk mobile to base stations at 7 to 10 miles in my little Honda Accord with the Tram 300. I have a Dave Made M80 in the car. My pickup truck has the Tram 3500 with a White Tornado 225 and I can get a couple more miles with it.

The little Hustler is on my wife's Pilot. I have a Realistic handheld in there with a little RM Italy KL35. I can get about 5 or 6 miles mobile to base in mixed terrain.

I have no more than $39 in any of those antennas.

By the way....

"I don't like magnet mounts."

OR

"Magnet mounts suck"

Those aren't substantive answers. I actually want to see a detailed explanation on what I'm allegedly missing by not buying a Larsen. If it's longevity and durability, great. I just would like to know.
 

mmckenna

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Those aren't substantive answers. I actually want to see a detailed explanation on what I'm allegedly missing by not buying a Larsen. If it's longevity and durability, great. I just would like to know.

Excellent questions...

If you take a permanent NMO mount antenna and mount it dead center on the roof of a vehicle, and compare it directly with a properly tuned magnetic mount antenna in the same location, it's about 0.1dB of loss on the mag mount. That's not something that any hobbyist is going to notice and nothing that can be properly measured without the right professional grade/calibrated test equipment on an antenna test range.
Seat of the pants will tell you there is no difference.

And you'll get no argument from me on that.

There are some other things to consider, however….
The capacitive coupling of the magnetic mount to the vehicle body isn't perfect. That's where the above 0.1dB penalty comes from. That can also vary depending on the size of the mag mount base, right down to thickness of the paint.

With a permanently mounted antenna the coax won't/shouldn't radiate energy.
With a mag mount and no direct connection to the ground plane, the coax can. Radiating coax means power isn't getting out the antenna. It can also create issues with vehicle electronics by letting RF into places it doesn't belong. It can also change the radiation pattern of the antenna.

The other challenge is that more and more vehicles are using aluminum or other non-ferrous materials in their construction. Aluminum has been used for a long time on fire trucks and ambulance bodies for weight savings and corrosion resistance. Mag mounts are not going to stick to that. My work and personal Ford trucks are aluminum, so mag mounts are not an option. Some cars are using composite body panels, so again, not an option. The permanent mounts are one of the few options that work well, and there are a lot more mounting options available where a mag mount won't work.

The other concern with mag mounts is getting the coax inside the vehicle. This may not be an issue for some, but for others it is. Having coaxial cable flapping around on the paint will lead to scratches/damage. Running coax through door/window seals can result in water intrusion into the vehicle. And then there's the issue with the coax cable itself getting damaged.
Coaxial cable has a characteristic impedance. This impedance is determined by the exact measurements of the cable, mainly spacing of the center conductor from the outer conductor. Pinching the cable in a door/window can change that and create a small 'bump' in the impedance of the cable.
Other big issue is that vibration, compression and movement of the coax can result in damage to the outer jacket. Unless you are using a direct bury rated cable, water is going to get inside and corrode the copper and eventually break down the cable and dielectric. That can lead to unwanted noise, a direct short, open, etc.

But some are OK with those trade offs. I get it and usually try to not hold it against anyone. We all do what we can to survive, and drilling 3/4" holes in the roof of a vehicle isn't for everyone. On the other hand, some of us enjoy the hell out of it and will do it every chance we can get.

The big benefit to the mag mounts is ease of installation, and ease of swapping one antenna between vehicles. That's pretty high value for some. Being able to drop an antenna on the roof and be on the air in a few minutes is a great option in some cases. For others it's quick satisfaction with little investment.

But magnetic mounts are not superior to a permanent mount antenna from a technical standpoint.

The permanent mount will work better, but may not be noticed by the end user. Having properly routed cable results in a cleaner and quieter installation. Not dealing with doors, windows, rear hatches, sliding rear windows, etc is also a benefit. There's no risk of paint damage, either.

The permanent mount will work better. Having a better ground plane connection makes a difference. It can also help with better radiation patterns, if installed correctly.

On the professional side, things need to look good. Permanent mount meets that requirement. Also, you don't want to be dealing with coax running through a window/door on a fire truck, ambulance or police car. That's a whole mess on it's own. The reliability needed in those applications requires taking the extra steps to do a full install. Knowing the antenna is going to work correctly every time and to the best of it's ability is a life safety concern. I can't guarantee that with a mag mount, and I wouldn't put one of our officers through that sort of risk.


As for the Larsen antennas….
I know brands like K40 have a good reputation. There's a ton of them out there and most have good reviews. Nothing at all wrong with those if they fit your needs.

Like you, I have antennas that are decades old and still working like new. I have a Larsen NMO-27 that is over 30 years old now. It's been on top of numerous trucks, hit tree branches, Texas bugs, low parking garages, etc. and it still works just fine.
Probably just like your K40 has. Both work as good as new, I'm guessing.

For me, it's the known name brand. It's having installed hundreds of them over my career. It's knowing they'll do the job and not fail. I know how they work, I understand the parts, and I understand how they go together. I can carry spare parts in my work truck and fix any issues I run across (rare). I've had to replace a lot of inferior brands/designs over the years where someone saw a chance to save $1 each on 20 antennas and took that easy route.
It's knowing that the antenna will be durable and work when it's needed. It's knowing that I don't have to worry about it failing at the wrong time.


But, yeah, I get it. Sounds like you are happy with your choices. If those brands and magnetic mounts work well for you, that's all that matters. Nothing wrong with it and I'm not going to try to convince you to drill a hole in your car for some sort of bragging rights. If what you have works, that's all that matters.
 
Last edited:

FPR1981

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Messages
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Excellent questions...

If you take a permanent NMO mount antenna and mount it dead center on the roof of a vehicle, and compare it directly with a properly tuned magnetic mount antenna in the same location, it's about 0.1dB of loss on the mag mount. That's not something that any hobbyist is going to notice and nothing that can be properly measured without the right professional grade/calibrated test equipment on an antenna test range.
Seat of the pants will tell you there is no difference.

And you'll get no argument from me on that.

There are some other things to consider, however….
The capacitive coupling of the magnetic mount to the vehicle body isn't perfect. That's where the above 0.1dB penalty comes from. That can also vary depending on the size of the mag mount base, right down to thickness of the paint.

With a permanently mounted antenna the coax won't/shouldn't radiate energy.
With a mag mount and no direct connection to the ground plane, the coax can. Radiating coax means power isn't getting out the antenna. It can also create issues with vehicle electronics by letting RF into places it doesn't belong. It can also change the radiation pattern of the antenna.

The other challenge is that more and more vehicles are using aluminum or other non-ferrous materials in their construction. Aluminum has been used for a long time on fire trucks and ambulance bodies for weight savings and corrosion resistance. Mag mounts are not going to stick to that. My work and personal Ford trucks are aluminum, so mag mounts are not an option. Some cars are using composite body panels, so again, not an option. The permanent mounts are one of the few options that work well, and there are a lot more mounting options available where a mag mount won't work.

The other concern with mag mounts is getting the coax inside the vehicle. This may not be an issue for some, but for others it is. Having coaxial cable flapping around on the paint will lead to scratches/damage. Running coax through door/window seals can result in water intrusion into the vehicle. And then there's the issue with the coax cable itself getting damaged.
Coaxial cable has a characteristic impedance. This impedance is determined by the exact measurements of the cable, mainly spacing of the center conductor from the outer conductor. Pinching the cable in a door/window can change that and create a small 'bump' in the impedance of the cable.
Other big issue is that vibration, compression and movement of the coax can result in damage to the outer jacket. Unless you are using a direct bury rated cable, water is going to get inside and corrode the copper and eventually break down the cable and dielectric. That can lead to unwanted noise, a direct short, open, etc.

But some are OK with those trade offs. I get it and usually try to not hold it against anyone. We all do what we can to survive, and drilling 3/4" holes in the roof of a vehicle isn't for everyone. On the other hand, some of us enjoy the hell out of it and will do it every chance we can get.

The big benefit to the mag mounts is ease of installation, and ease of swapping one antenna between vehicles. That's pretty high value for some. Being able to drop an antenna on the roof and be on the air in a few minutes is a great option in some cases. For others it's quick satisfaction with little investment.

But magnetic mounts are not superior to a permanent mount antenna from a technical standpoint.

The permanent mount will work better, but may not be noticed by the end user. Having properly routed cable results in a cleaner and quieter installation. Not dealing with doors, windows, rear hatches, sliding rear windows, etc is also a benefit. There's no risk of paint damage, either.

The permanent mount will work better. Having a better ground plane connection makes a difference. It can also help with better radiation patterns, if installed correctly.

On the professional side, things need to look good. Permanent mount meets that requirement. Also, you don't want to be dealing with coax running through a window/door on a fire truck, ambulance or police car. That's a whole mess on it's own. The reliability needed in those applications requires taking the extra steps to do a full install. Knowing the antenna is going to work correctly every time and to the best of it's ability is a life safety concern. I can't guarantee that with a mag mount, and I wouldn't put one of our officers through that sort of risk.


As for the Larsen antennas….
I know brands like K40 have a good reputation. There's a ton of them out there and most have good reviews. Nothing at all wrong with those if they fit your needs.

Like you, I have antennas that are decades old and still working like new. I have a Larsen NMO-27 that is over 30 years old now. It's been on top of numerous trucks, hit tree branches, Texas bugs, low parking garages, etc. and it still works just fine.
Probably just like your K40 has. Both work as good as new, I'm guessing.

For me, it's the known name brand. It's having installed hundreds of them over my career. It's knowing they'll do the job and not fail. I know how they work, I understand the parts, and I understand how they go together. I can carry spare parts in my work truck and fix any issues I run across (rare). I've had to replace a lot of inferior brands/designs over the years where someone saw a chance to save $1 each on 20 antennas and took that easy route.
It's knowing that the antenna will be durable and work when it's needed. It's knowing that I don't have to worry about it failing at the wrong time.


But, yeah, I get it. Sounds like you are happy with your choices. If those brands and magnetic mounts work well for you, that's all that matters. Nothing wrong with it and I'm not going to try to convince you to drill a hole in your car for some sort of bragging rights. If what you have works, that's all that matters.

Bravo. Exactly the answer I was looking for.

I appreciate you taking the time for such a detailed response.

I would not be opposed to installing a Larsen NMO27, but right now all that effort simply does not suit my needs.
 

mmckenna

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Bravo. Exactly the answer I was looking for.

I appreciate you taking the time for such a detailed response.

I would not be opposed to installing a Larsen NMO27, but right now all that effort simply does not suit my needs.

Yeah, I get it. Doing the full NMO install can take some time to do correctly. Drilling the hole is the easy part. Routing the cable is where it can get hard and time consuming. Not to mention cut up hands, achy back, having to disassemble vehicle trim, etc. It's usually a good workout when I do them. Most of the work stuff gets done by upfitter shops now (thankfully), but I still occasionally do the one-offs and of course my own work truck and personal vehicles.
 

FPR1981

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Messages
621
Laird 27 with an NMO mount or a Larsen... Which antenna do you think is superior?
 

mmckenna

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Laird 27 with an NMO mount or a Larsen... Which antenna do you think is superior?

My personal/professional experience keeps leading me back to Larsen. I'm not totally sold on the Laird bases, but that's jut my experience. I've have a few Laird VHF half wave antennas and they've been good, but I keep an eye on the coils. I don't think their design is as good as the Larsen coil enclosure.

Personally I think if I was in the market for a new antenna, I'd use the Larsen NMO-30 coil with the longer whip as mentioned above.
 

mrweather

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Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,313
Loading coils introduce loss and the longer the whip the less you're relying on the coil to give you the necessary electrical length.

I've had an NMO27 for years and have been happy with its performance. But the NMO30 with longer whip combination is definitely intriguing and I would give it serious consideration.
 

slowmover

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Permanent mount is a proper system.

Mag Mount is a focus on a system component.


I’ve run into guys with mag mounts used for years in business (oversized truck load “pilot cars”) who think them just great. But that’s because others in a convoy or nearby traffic have proper systems.

The ideal design for Mobile is that YOUR radio rig must overcome the deficiencies of the other mans typical (half-assed) rig.

Need to both get out & hear farther.

Depending on others to do your work FOR you is bad strategy. The pilot car guys mentioned DON’T understand this.

The man with the safely-secured ANTENNA SYSTEM is the one who has 100% performance 100% of the time.

I purposely irritated a fellow driver at my company about his crap CB. He was detailing me about a recent run he’d made (the risk factor story) AND HE BLEW IT WITH A FOUR-HOUR TRAFFIC JAM he hadn’t had the ears to hear about, thus route around. (Truck drivers have to counter problems in a variety of ways. And it’s ALL against the clock).

Separating feelz from the logic of performance (the engineering) is where it’s at.

I’ve a dozen or more mobile antennas. The puck mount for the pickup roof also has an NMO-adapter. I can use whatever antenna seems best that day, from 4’ to 9’. There are also adapters reverse to this; but restrictions apply.

An adapter is never ideal, but I’ll take it over a mag mount. And I have several of those (you must carry spare coax jumper ready to replace damaged original. As that’s when, not IF).

.
 
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FiveFilter

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Messages
308
As noted earlier, there is effectively no performance difference between a magnet-mount antenna and a hole-mount antenna.

So, it's not the mount that matters; it's the antenna that matters, especially the length, everything else being equal.

Some folks just can't stand the thought that somebody has not drilled a hole in their roof and they live happily anyway.

Remember, no performance difference, at least not without extremely sensitive equipment to measure things.

Amazing to me.
 

FPR1981

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Messages
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I have a progression of mobile magnet mounts, from a cheap 18 dollar shorty with the spring and the load/coil before the small mast, to a slightly longer Hustler IC-100S (like a K30), a Tram 300 (Little Wil clone), a traditional K40, and then my big boy, the Tram 3500 (57 inch mast, 3500 watt coil handling with RG8X).

I find that in all cases, we are dealing with a 1/4-wave antenna crammed into smaller packages than a 102" steel whip with a spring. Each gets progressively better with increased size.

So how damn great can a permanent mount 1/4-wave antenna be, performance wise, versus a Tram 3500, Sirio 5000 or a Stryer SR-A10?

Performance, of course, is the primary interest of most.

All are trying to cram 106 inches of performance into something 60 inches or less. I can't see where the mounting method is going to change a whole lot when we consider Wilson 1000/5000 versus Larsen NMO27, or Laird CB27.
 

mmckenna

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All are trying to cram 106 inches of performance into something 60 inches or less. I can't see where the mounting method is going to change a whole lot when we consider Wilson 1000/5000 versus Larsen NMO27, or Laird CB27.

Depends on the mounting.

If all things are equal, then there's only the 0.1dB difference that was noted above.

But a lot of times things are not equal. Poorly tuned antennas can result in RF on the coaxial cable getting radiated along it's length.
The capacitive coupling between the magnetic mount and the body can vary depending on the size of the mag mount.
Poorly chosen mounting location that is dictated more by cable routing that good RF design.
And then you have the challenge of aluminum body vehicles….

But, put your large magnetic base K40 dead center in the roof and you are not likely to notice the slight difference between a mag mount and a permanent mount.

For some of us, we don't want coax routed across the roof and in through a window, especially if this is intended to be a long term (life of the vehicle) installation. There's also the aesthetics of a permanent install with no visible cable on a new vehicle.

But, absolutely, to each their own. If a magnetic mount antenna meets your needs, then that is 100% the correct antenna for you.
 
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