NYPD low band VHF historical use

[wfiedelman]

Here's another trip down Memory Lane, with more photos and info about the Communications Bureau.

POLICE NY Radio CB

old NYPD radio Communications Bureau

www.policeny.com

 

[mshumeyk]

The transition started in the late 70's and went by boro. Some boros such as the Bronx did not complete the transition until well into the 80's.

Certainly understandable for the largest PD in the US. I guess Manhattan must have been one of the early boroughs to transition

 

[K2KOH]

I think it was a thread from long ago, somebody mentioned the difficulty Yonkers had communicating with the NYPD.
What's the history of the NYPD being able to communicate with neighboring departments or lack of ability?

We had a hotline direct to Mount Vernon PD on the 9th Division. My memory is sketchy, I forget how we communicated with Yonkers.

 

[radioman2001]

The transition started in the late 70's and went by boro. Some boros such as the Bronx did not complete the transition until well into the 80's.

Manhattan being the most complicated to do was done first, and from my memory while working some of my last HHC EMS tours in the Bronx they were indeed the last to convert, and it definitly was in the 80's (81-82). We still picked up slim-line VHF HT-220 portables from the 47 pct.
A side story while travelling home on the Sprain Parkway after a 4-12 to Mid-Westchester, I ended up in the middle of a NYPD pursuit which ended in downtown White Plains. The VHF system worked well even that far out of the borough, as I think the transmitters were in either on NCB or Monitfiore hospitals at Gun Hill Rd. I could hear the Officers calling Central to notify White Plains where they stopped the vehicle, and at that point I believe they were lost and could not direct anyone else to where they were.

 

[K2KOH]

The transition started in the late 70's and went by boro. Some boros such as the Bronx did not complete the transition until well into the 80's.

Manhattan being the most complicated to do was done first, and from my memory while working some of my last HHC EMS tours in the Bronx they were indeed the last to convert, and it definitly was in the 80's (81-82). We still picked up slim-line VHF HT-220 portables from the 47 pct.
A side story while travelling home on the Sprain Parkway after a 4-12 to Mid-Westchester, I ended up in the middle of a NYPD pursuit which ended in downtown White Plains. The VHF system worked well even that far out of the borough, as I think the transmitters were in either on NCB or Monitfiore hospitals at Gun Hill Rd. I could hear the Officers calling Central to notify White Plains where they stopped the vehicle, and at that point I believe they were lost and could not direct anyone else to where they were.

Did the 52 have some kind of repeater system? I seem to remember the times when I worked 9th Division radio there was a squelch tail after the transmission

 

[jiminpgh]

Perhaps this will contribute to the conversation.
Attached is something I got from RR awhile back. Not sure who to credit on this.
I do remember the VHF HT200's on the beat cops in Brooklyn in the late 60's. Cool.

 

[n2nov]

Just an FYI. The upper right "New York City Police Dept." should have read "New York City Fire Dept."

 

[radioman2001]

All the VHF systems as I remember were repeated and I could hear most of them even from down South like Brooklyn and S.I. in mid to upper Westchester. NYPD had some very aggressive coverage areas protected by FCC licensing, like 300 miles radius from NYC. I will have to find some "Call Books" I have from the mid 70's which list both the VHF and NEW UHF channels for all NYC agencies. Back then you didn't have the access to FCC records you have today, and I used to contribute info to another call style book each year, which was administered by a then assistant DA Warren Silvestein from Queens, I think.. ? Much too long ago to remember all these things.
Going back to the squelch tail the HT200 and HT220 portable radios did not have "reverse burst" to squelch the radio without the telltale audio burst as the reed "Vibrasponder" in the repeater radio decayed vibrating. The MX series was the first portable radios that had the 180 deg flip to stop the reed from vibrating, hence that "gulp" sound at the end. Some early Maxtracs not sure which model it started, maybe HHT or MST had the reverse burst. I think it was an option using an actual relay to flip the PL tone 180 deg. From the Micor series forward all had the reverse burst as a trademark. Even when DPL came out they used tone of 138hz to do the same thing.

Just an FYI. The upper right "New York City Police Dept." should have read "New York City Fire Dept."

There are other errors, 161.22 Police Commissoner is a Rail Transit freq, and until a few years ago MNRR Police. While not an error the 151.xxx channels mainly used in Brooklyn, Queens and S.I. were Forestry Conservation channels repurposed for NYPD due to a shortage of available clear channels..

 

[wfiedelman]

In the mid-1950s I monitored Brooklyn West/Richmond (KEA745; 39.42 mHz) on a tunable Hallicrafters receiver, which had almost no sensitivity and couldn't receive RMPs more than a few blocks away. In 1958 I acquired a crystal-controlled Motorola receiver (see the photo), which received transmissions from Richmond (Staten Island) RMPs when Brooklyn NYPD radio missed the call. Unbelievable sensitivity (thanks K2hz) using a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna on the roof of a 6-story building and connected with 70' of RG-8 coax. In the summer I heard skip transmissions from a Southern police department. NYPD dispatchers were all male POs and there was no logic to RMP numbering, although I recall that sergeants' RMPs were designated 18XX (for example, 1865 was the 70 precinct's sergeant RMP). Can't believe I can remember such trivia. Anyway, just for historical perspective.

 

[k2hz]

All the VHF systems as I remember were repeated and I could hear most of them even from down South like Brooklyn and S.I. in mid to upper Westchester. NYPD had some very aggressive coverage areas protected by FCC licensing, like 300 miles radius from NYC. I will have to find some "Call Books" I have from the mid 70's which list both the VHF and NEW UHF channels for all NYC agencies. Back then you didn't have the access to FCC records you have today, and I used to contribute info to another call style book each year, which was administered by a then assistant DA Warren Silvestein from Queens, I think.. ? Much too long ago to remember all these things.
Going back to the squelch tail the HT200 and HT220 portable radios did not have "reverse burst" to squelch the radio without the telltale audio burst as the reed "Vibrasponder" in the repeater radio decayed vibrating. The MX series was the first portable radios that had the 180 deg flip to stop the reed from vibrating, hence that "gulp" sound at the end. Some early Maxtracs not sure which model it started, maybe HHT or MST had the reverse burst. I think it was an option using an actual relay to flip the PL tone 180 deg. From the Micor series forward all had the reverse burst as a trademark. Even when DPL came out they used tone of 138hz to do the same thing.

Just an FYI. The upper right "New York City Police Dept." should have read "New York City Fire Dept."

There are other errors, 161.22 Police Commissoner is a Rail Transit freq, and until a few years ago MNRR Police. While not an error the 151.xxx channels mainly used in Brooklyn, Queens and S.I. were Forestry Conservation channels repurposed for NYPD due to a shortage of available clear channels..

I also recall that VHF was repeated back in the 70s when I was periodically in the area. I had cassette tape recordings of NYPD, FDNY and others from that era that I can no longer find. I think I disposed of them several years ago when I found they had deteriorated and were unplayable.

I believe the UHF implementation started in upper Manhattan in the mid 70s and they were dealing with some issues with the receiver voting technology available at the time so the first Divisions to go UHF were still somewhat in the development stage when I no longer was in a position to follow the buildout.

The 1974 report I referenced in an earlier post confirms the VHF system did use repeaters and the were limitations on expansion due to frequency availability and technical considerations which is why the move to UHF was needed. The report details UHF portable coverage tests and path loss measurements done in the 4, 5 & 6 Divisions and lists proposed voting receiver sites. It also goes into considerable detail on Intermod issues. As I mentioned before, at around 100 pages, I can't readily scan and post the report.

 

[innokuous1]

I was a teenager in the 1970's when I started monitoring public safety radio, specifically NYPD 101st Pct. and FDNY Queens (and gradually started listening to other agencies).

What I remember about NYPD VHF was that the base/car frequency (151.340 MHz) was simplex, no repeater involved. The portables however were repeated by a repeater located at the station house. It was there behind the desk connected to an antenna on the roof.

I remember one day there was chatter on the radio about the precinct repeater being down and how Central couldn't hear the portables. They finally figured out that someone on the desk accidentally unplugged the repeater. Plugged it back in-problem solved! The input to the repeater was the Queens talk-around frequency (155.565 MHz) with a PL tone that I can't remember because that wasn't pertinent to me at the time.

What I do wonder now is if other precincts had their portables repeated through a repeater at the station house with a precinct specific PL tone on the input (which would mean once out of range of your precinct's repeater your portable won't talk into any other precinct repeaters). Does anyone have any memory of this being the case?

 

[footage]

Fascinating discussion. I moved to NYC in summer 1980, when SOD still used 155.535 and undercover units sometimes popped up on VHF frequencies. Many of the T-band frequencies nominally assigned to specialized units were not in use, and it took a long train ride and then a walk to Stuart Electronics in Queens for Peter Guggenheim to set me right on which frequencies actually live.

I'm now doing academic research on the history of public safety communication, and if there is anyone who still has audio recordings of NYPD (or other agencies) before 1980, I would like to speak with you.

 

[k2hz]

What I do wonder now is if other precincts had their portables repeated through a repeater at the station house with a precinct specific PL tone on the input (which would mean once out of range of your precinct's repeater your portable won't talk into any other precinct repeaters). Does anyone have any memory of this being the case?

The 1974 UHF system design report said:
"Our present VHF system has installed a repeater relay at each precinct station house or high site in the area. Tone codes are used to prevent multi-keying"
Also:
"The present system does not give complete coverage especially in precincts having a large area. Portable units cannot reach the fixed repeater because they are out of range (i.e., 103-105, 50 Precincts, etc.)."

The report gave reasons why expansion of this system was not practical and recommended a receiver voting system for UHF. It mentioned a voting system had been installed on the existing VHF system in Richmond to replace the fixed relay repeaters but could not be expanded to other Divisions due to frequency unavailability on VHF.

 

[MStep]

This is a great thread! I grew up in Newark during the 1940's and left in 1972. I remember listening to both Manhattan and Brooklyn FDNY on my small Lafayette portable VHF radio's...one for the low VHF and one for the high VHF. See insert.

Newark is about 15 miles [+/-] from Manhattan; both the audio from the Borough of Manhattan, as well as Brooklyn and the Bronx came in exceptionally well. My main radio, though, was the one pictured in my avatar. Had a small 3" speaker but plenty of volume. The 357C receiver covers 28-54MC, 88-174MC and 200-250MC in 9 calibrated bands. Variable mode reception for CB , CW. NBFM, WBFM, and in addition to Police and Fire calls. The radio uses 6 tubes and 3 diodes and a self contained power supply. The radio was manufactured by Kuhn Radio Electronics, in Cincinnati...not the one currently listed in New York State. You could buy a vertical antenna [banana plug coax!] w/a base loaded coil that mounted on the bottom of the antenna. I was enthralled listening to the Newark riots [1967]...was up all night listening. My folks went to work that morning after. Had some very grievous stories to tell when they got home...

View attachment 114467View attachment 114468

I had a Kuhn 353B, circa 1965, which was selling through some of the communications magazines of the same period. Compared to the Regency Monitoradios of the same period, the Kuhn was a very poorly constructed super-regenerative receiver that was apparently made in someone's basement. With a lot of dial twiddling, you could pick up some local stuff. It sold for 59.95 and appeared to be someone's labor of love.

This was the time when the NYPD had one of it's Brooklyn frequencies on 151.37. The Regency's frequency coverage started at 152 mcs, and I remember having the detune one of the coils in the Regency to get it down from 152 to 151.

Those were fun days.

 

[Rudy3145]

A major focus of the 1974 study for the proposed UHF system was to support portable coverage as described in the introduction:

k2hz - Can you post some of the pics with voting sites & coverage tests? That would be interesting to see

 

[k2hz]

k2hz - Can you post some of the pics with voting sites & coverage tests? That would be interesting to see

Sorry no pictures. This was 1974 so it is a typewritten report! There are 30 pages of tables and graphs with test results. Here is a typical map and results of tests of received signals at 3 voter sites from portable radios at the listed locations.

 

[Rishayan]

Wow. What great information. How I would love to be able to go back in time when everything was still analog and receivable at great distances during tropo and E skip. When I was a teenager and in my 20s, I remember staying up all night to listen NYFD dispatch's on 154.25, 154.43, 154.19, etc. during strong tropo, as NYC is over 200 miles from where I was at. The excitement of hearing "big city" fire calls at that time was tremendous. I just wonder if there are any recordings of NYPD and NYFD back in the years when they were on 39 Mhz or even better when they were on 2450 kHz. It would be great to upload them to you tube.

 

[wfiedelman]

Slightly off topic -- I posted this a few years ago but it's sort of historically relevant to this thread. I was a physician Medical Investigator for the OCME from 1966 to 1979. During those years, Medical Investigators often used a NYC Department of Hospitals car to respond to scenes of death. DOH cars were equipped with GE VHF-low band radios (47.66 mHz) to reach "Hospital Base" at Bellevue. But there was no radio in the OCME office, and I convinced the CME to install a GE radio console in the clerks' office so Medical Investigators using DOH cars could be dispatched to scenes of death (the console was connected to Hospital Base by a landline). The system worked well for about 1 month, and it saved hours of unnecessary travel up and down Manhattan. After the first month, the OCME clerks refused to use the radio, claiming that they (the clerks) were not radio operators and were not paid to use this equipment, so the console sat unused.

 

[radioman2001]

Very interesting Voter report, shows very little improvement (about 1 to 1.5db) between a 1 watt GE and a 4 watt Motorola. I would guess they were using helical antennas, and do you know if this is on VHF or UHF.

We had a GE DC console in the ER when I worked at Misery in the early 1980's hooked to what they called the Morgue channel. It was turned off, but I would fire it up once a while to listen.

Your pictures are of "progress line" radios. They were all tube units with about 60-100 watt on L.B.

 

[k2hz]

The tests were at the new system UHF frequencies for the sites. In addition to the voter site tests, other tests were done as direct comparisons between the portables with both telescoping and helical antennas. There are many pages of data but the conclusion was:
"1. The four watt portable unit out performed the one watt unit by small insignificant amounts.
2. The telescoping antenna was better than the helical antenna.
3. The helical antenna performed the poorest.
4. The increased "talk-back" distance obtained from using the four watt portable unit was approximately two to three tenths of a mile depending on the terrain."

For the overall system test results NYPD concluded: "The test results using both transmitters show there is no appreciable difference in a properly designed voting system. Both units performed (1 watt - 4 watt) equally well in quieting the receiver at the satellite locations."

Re wfiedelman's pictures: I had an off-line discussion with him and he agreed that, while he had posted a photo of a Progress Line table top base since it was what he found in available on-line pictures of Progress Line radios, the actual unit was a GE RC-4 DC console. I sent him a photo of a RC-4 in use at a system I maintained back in that era and he agreed that is what they had.