OPP and future encryption

gary123

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
1,123
I hear what you say Muxlow and agree. Frequent flyers are a problem. In the senario you mention at least a license was attached to the traffic stop and can be used to identify the culprit and then be flagged or tracked down. No solution is bullet proof but if the word gets out that the penalties are clear and enforced many will think twice. Those who totally ignore or think they are above or exempt from the laws eventually dig them selves into a hole.

It took years for the system to get this messed up. It will take years to fix it. If it wasnt for the extraordinary work and dilligence LE does today the whole thing would have crashed long ago. Very few see the effort that is happening behind the scenes.
 

mciupa

Multi Province DB Admin
Moderator
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
6,995
Quote from the Toronto Sun article: "police forces....... are available on live streams. "

live streams=shooting oneself in the foot, or adding fuel to the fire, not very smart.
Please avoid going down that road as RadioReference provides a Live Audio platform that is part of it's business model.
 

wildstreak73

Newbie
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
3
Location
North Bay, ON, CA
Any rumors when the OPP might go encrypted ? I think it would cost 10's of millions to go encrypted. And which systems are simulcast?
The OPP will be going with encryption some time this year, at a cost to the tax payer of $765,000,000.00 (seven hundred and sixty-five million) I had a local article about this from The North Bay Nugget posted to my scanner feeds FB page to notify my listeners that when this happen we will be ending out stream.
 

Forts

Mentor
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
5,655
Location
Ontario, Canada
That's very misleading... The $765 million is the cost of an entirely new system, which will make use of encryption. The cost of encryption is not costing any tax payers millions of dollars. The current Fleetnet system is pushing 20 years old and is very antiquated by todays standards.
 

IdleMonitor

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
2,574
Location
The Ottawa Valley - Eastern Ontario
Probably doesn't help the case very much when ya out right promote the fact that you switch the public feed over to the TAC channels that aren't suppose to be on the feed anyways. But that's another whole thing though...

The OPP will be going with encryption some time this year, at a cost to the tax payer of $765,000,000.00 (seven hundred and sixty-five million) I had a local article about this from The North Bay Nugget posted to my scanner feeds FB page to notify my listeners that when this happen we will be ending out stream.
 

jeffrogerson

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 8, 2007
Messages
98
Location
Picton, Ontario
Was sent this today...
Maybe I shouldn't have purchased an SDS200 last year.
 

gary123

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
1,123
I may or may not have of heard 'system security' and 'officer' safety in meetings over and over and over. Bottom line is until it happens enjoy listening and maybe just maybe try and be a responsible listener. Nothing anyone says here or anywhere is going to change what will be will be.
 

DomChrisOwens

Newbie
Joined
May 7, 2019
Messages
4
Location
Ontario, Canada
That's very misleading... The $765 million is the cost of an entirely new system, which will make use of encryption. The cost of encryption is not costing any tax payers millions of dollars. The current Fleetnet system is pushing 20 years old and is very antiquated by todays standards.
To be fair, yes your correct that the 700 million+ amount isn't for the ENC but the entire new system.

From what I'm told its slated to be a P25 Phase II trunked simulcast system. The exact details on what will and won't be encrypted will forever be up for debate (policing agencies tend to ENC every little talkgroup)

I disagree however that the ENC won't cost taxpayers million, I've been told it's likely they will utilise the AES 256-bit ENC, with OAR (over air rekeying), those features generally aren't standard with the single button AES (but if I'm mistaken please correct me ).

I know that when our city went ENC it cost a fortune for the upgraded system, police had already migrated to a p25 trunked simulcast ENC system, so the city decided to switch everyone to a the same system type when KFR requested an upgrade.

In looking over city documentation we the taxpayers fork out around 5-6 million per year to have our cities system encrypted and that includes fire, police, transit, bylaw, public works, and utilities.

To put that number into contrast with the province wide system, we have 10 fire halls, 1 training facility, KFR HQ, KPF HQ, two or three public works/utilities yards, and one transit facility.

Now considering the area to be covered and the sheer amount of sites that will be needed, ENC on this new system will or should in contrast cost well over $25 million/year to setup and maintain over the lifetime of the system.

I am not an expert in anything, if I'm not 100% accurate on numbers or technical specifications my sincere apologies.
 

Forts

Mentor
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
5,655
Location
Ontario, Canada
Adding multi key encryption w/OTAR can be expensive per radio, yes. But I'm sure on a system of this size they would be getting a pretty sizeable discount for those features from Motorola. But, no matter how you spin it, it's gonna be expensive! If you look over in the Florida forum you'll see they are going thru a similar process. Upgrading an old system to a new P25 system, but the bill is creeping up towards $800 million... that's just insane! Plus there is a big pissing match there between Harris and Motorola to get the contract. But it doesn't matter where you are, that's a lot of tax payers $$ that could maybe be better spent elsewhere.
 

kayn1n32008

ÆS, I put that shøt on everything.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,874
Location
In the 'patch
I would agree with forts. Buying subs in bulk will substantially drop their price. I wouldn’t expect anything but AES256 used on the network. Anything else is welfare, and not considered secure. In Alberta the system operator mandated that any use of encryption had to be AES256.
 

kayn1n32008

ÆS, I put that shøt on everything.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,874
Location
In the 'patch
Now considering the area to be covered and the sheer amount of sites that will be needed, ENC on this new system will or should in contrast cost well over $25 million/year to setup and maintain over the lifetime of the system.

I am not an expert in anything, if I'm not 100% accurate on numbers or technical specifications my sincere apologies.
Once subs are initially programmed and loaded with a UKEK, encryption is hands off. OTAR takes care of the rest, simply a push of a button and radios are rekeyed.

The ONLY time a radio needs to be touched with a KVL is if the user inadvertently zeroizes the radio, or it sits with out a power source(if infinite key retention is not enabled)

Not sure where you came up with the number to maintain encryption.
 

gary123

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
1,123
Expect P25 Phase II TDMA. The system will not be silmucast. There are too many TGs over too large an area. Expect 1 key AES radios and keys to be rotated regularly.

We are all speculating and running in circles. Wait for the build out and log, log log. Even with ENC knowing what TG is what user can be informative all on its own.
 

kayn1n32008

ÆS, I put that shøt on everything.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,874
Location
In the 'patch
Expect 1 key AES radios and keys to be rotated regularly
Single key AES WILL make maintaining encryption virtually impossible. Especially if they want to rotate keys regularly.

If it’s expected that keys will be changed frequently/regularly the only manageable way to do it is with a KMF, OTAR and hardware multi key encryption. Especially with radios that will be used by specialty units where they need multiple different encryption keys and units that interop with other encrypted agencies.

You would need to be pretty stupid to try and only use one key in a police organization that covers as much ground as the OPP and has multiple specialty units working on issues like organized crime
 

gary123

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
1,123
The issue is that the proposed radios come with 1 key. Paying for more means proportionatly that many less radios being bought.

"we are all about system security unless its going to cost money." This is all very much in the air and the desired requirements over realistic matters is changing almost hourly.

Until hardware arrives and test bed programs are started all speculation is going to do is get everyone upset and panicked. Me im just waiting and occasionally listening to the voices of reason . All too soon the questions will answer themselves.
 

DomChrisOwens

Newbie
Joined
May 7, 2019
Messages
4
Location
Ontario, Canada
Once subs are initially programmed and loaded with a UKEK, encryption is hands off. OTAR takes care of the rest, simply a push of a button and radios are rekeyed.

The ONLY time a radio needs to be touched with a KVL is if the user inadvertently zeroizes the radio, or it sits with out a power source(if infinite key retention is not enabled)

Not sure where you came up with the number to maintain encryption.
The number I quoted for the province-wide system may not be 100% accurate, but Kingston pays well over $4 million/year give or take to maintain the encryption on our system alone. Regular maintenance or software patches don't appear to equal out to the number so it is the only added expense that would account for the number spent by the city.

Let me say again that I'm no expert an some in here will definitely know more than myself.

I have put in a request for both updated provincial and municipal budgets with relation to radio spectrum allocation under the freedom of information act.......guess we will see if they grant the request for updated documentation.
 
Top