P25 Low Band?

[natedawg1604]

Is there anyone who currently (or recently?) makes a P25 Low Band radio? I've recently been toying with setting up a Low Band system on Itinerant freqs, I'm guessing it won't be possible but I just thought I'd check if anything might be available in P25 or possibly another digital protocol.

 

[N5ICK]

Kenwood made one for California Highway Patrol which still uses low band. I think CHP are using them on analog for now.

 

[LTR]

Kenwood NX-5600HB is a low band mobile that does analog and NXDN digital. The Kenwood Viking VM7630 low band mobile only does analog. I believe CHP is using the Viking version.

 

[chrismol1]

I've got a weird one thinking out loud here. The Motorola PM1200 is a lowband radio. They advertised this model as being P25 upgradeable or is this being confused with the PM1500? Theres questionable info I don't know if someone screwed up the descriptions. PM1200 Mobile Two-Way Radio - Motorola Solutions
Has anyone ever got a lowband model to upgrade with P25 is that even possible at all

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Is there anyone who currently (or recently?) makes a P25 Low Band radio? I've recently been toying with setting up a Low Band system on Itinerant freqs, I'm guessing it won't be possible but I just thought I'd check if anything might be available in P25 or possibly another digital protocol.

I am now in process of getting some itinerant freqs on low band. The digital protocol is, CVSD, Motorola Securenet DES-XL 56 bit. The radios are Motorola Syntor X9000. Very inexpensive to buy and maintain.

LOC No.	ANT No.	FREQUENCIES (MHz)	STATION CLASS	NO. UNITS	NO. PAGERS	EMISSION DESIGNATOR 1	EMISSION DESIGNATOR 2			OUTPUT POWER WATTS	ERP WATTS
1​	1​	27.4900​	FB2I	1​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​
1​	1​	27.4900​	MOI	20​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​
1​	1​	35.0400​	FB2I	1​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​
1​	1​	35.0400​	MOI	20​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​
1​	1​	43.0400​	FB2I	1​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​
1​	1​	43.0400​	MOI	20​	0​	20K0F3E	20K0F1E			100​	100​

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I've got a weird one thinking out loud here. The Motorola PM1200 is a lowband radio. They advertised this model as being P25 upgradeable or is this being confused with the PM1500? Theres questionable info I don't know if someone screwed up the descriptions. PM1200 Mobile Two-Way Radio - Motorola Solutions
Has anyone ever got a lowband model to upgrade with P25 is that even possible at all

Nope, per the FCC Certifications the Modulation 16K0F3E, is analog only.

Unless you have a radio in hand with the software to try it, chances are poor that P25 is embedded. It would be a cost item as well, as they are not going to pay DVSI for licensing a vocoder in a radio sold as analog.

The below is either a mistake or some hopeful dream that they would sell some radios to CHP which is the only significant low band public safety user.

"Compatibility with P25 standards
Software upgrade allows radio interoperability across agencies, networks and jurisdictions. "

 

[mmckenna]

Is there anyone who currently (or recently?) makes a P25 Low Band radio? I've recently been toying with setting up a Low Band system on Itinerant freqs, I'm guessing it won't be possible but I just thought I'd check if anything might be available in P25 or possibly another digital protocol.

There is some military stuff that will do P25 and low band. No idea how you'd get hold of one, there's people here that have knowledge about such beasts.

There was a company at IWCE about 7 years ago that had a P25 capable low band repeater. I wish I could remember their name. I'll keep my eyes open this week and see if there is anyone there that has something suitable.

Kenwood has the NX-5600H, which is 39-50MHz and does analog and NXDN. Won't do P25, but NXDN works really well. It includes 56bit DES encryption and you can add AES256 if you want to go secret squirrel. Unfortunately they don't make any hand held low band radios anymore.
The NX-5600H is only available as an RF deck, you'd have to buy the control head and cable.
Theoretically, it's a firmware limitation, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest Kenwood wants to sell it as such. Maybe some day.
List price is $1783.00 for -just- the RF deck.

Low band is popular in other countries, so there may be other vendors.

 

[natedawg1604]

Is the CVSD protocol even monitorable by anything other than a Syntor radio? That sounds very intriguing.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Is the CVSD protocol even monitorable by anything other than a Syntor radio? That sounds very intriguing.

CVSD as used in Securenet , is proprietary to Motorola and employs encryption such as DVP , Motorola proprietary algorithm, or DES which is a Federal Encryption standard, and the -XL options which is a Motorola range extension feature. Bottom line is, not only is Securenet proprietary, even with the 56 bit DES and DES -XL federal standard of encryption, it is for all practical purposes, unmonitorable unless you are a target of a three letter agency of a major super power.

It is possible some wideband SDR military radios might have the Securenet waveform, BUT the 56 bit encryption key will thwart them.

As far as I know, for low band, Motorola only offered the Securenet in certain Syntor and Syntor X9000 radios. Securenet was an option in many modern Motorola public safety models from 136 to 512 MHz.

SYNTOR X 9000 and X 9000E Mobile Radio Information

In my opinion, Securenet sounds better than P25. A bit more natural and virtually no throughput delay.

The encryption Key in the Syntor X9000 is lithium ion battery backed up for 15 years or more. Though you should change it more frequently.

 

[natedawg1604]

CVSD as used in Securenet , is proprietary to Motorola and employs encryption such as DVP , Motorola proprietary algorithm, or DES which is a Federal Encryption standard, and the -XL options which is a Motorola range extension feature. Bottom line is, not only is Securenet proprietary, even with the 56 bit DES and DES -XL federal standard of encryption, it is for all practical purposes, unmonitorable unless you are a target of a three letter agency of a major super power.

It is possible some wideband SDR military radios might have the Securenet waveform, BUT the 56 bit encryption key will thwart them.

As far as I know, for low band, Motorola only offered the Securenet in certain Syntor and Syntor X9000 radios. Securenet was an option in many modern Motorola public safety models from 136 to 512 MHz.

SYNTOR X 9000 and X 9000E Mobile Radio Information

In my opinion, Securenet sounds better than P25. A bit more natural and virtually no throughput delay.

Wow! Did they make any portable versions?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Wow! Did they make any portable versions?

Unfortunately not. You can use the vehicular repeater option to access the radio via UHF or VHF portable, however that linkage is in the clear FM, even if the Syntor X9000 is in an encrypted mode.

 

[DeoVindice]

Unfortunately not. You can use the vehicular repeater option to access the radio via UHF or VHF portable, however that linkage is in the clear FM, even if the Syntor X9000 is in an encrypted mode.

It would sound pretty bad, but in theory you could pipe P25 audio into the Syntor. I've got a double-vocode P25 vehicular simplex repeater and it works just fine.

What kind of programming and keyloading infrastructure is required for Securenet on Syntors?

 

[Project25_MASTR]

There is some military stuff that will do P25 and low band. No idea how you'd get hold of one, there's people here that have knowledge about such beasts.

There was a company at IWCE about 7 years ago that had a P25 capable low band repeater. I wish I could remember their name. I'll keep my eyes open this week and see if there is anyone there that has something suitable.

Kenwood has the NX-5600H, which is 39-50MHz and does analog and NXDN. Won't do P25, but NXDN works really well. It includes 56bit DES encryption and you can add AES256 if you want to go secret squirrel. Unfortunately they don't make any hand held low band radios anymore.
The NX-5600H is only available as an RF deck, you'd have to buy the control head and cable.
Theoretically, it's a firmware limitation, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest Kenwood wants to sell it as such. Maybe some day.
List price is $1783.00 for -just- the RF deck.

Low band is popular in other countries, so there may be other vendors.

There has supposedly been a quantity of about 100 RF Technology Eclispe 3's that have been filled to a US .gov agency in a low band variant which are "not restricted from using P25 on low band" as the reciter module for the E3 is SDR based and covers VHF-Low, VHF-High, UHF, 700 and 800. I haven't talked to the guys over at RFTA about the super secret squirrel stuff they've been doing for a few years though...

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

It would sound pretty bad, but in theory you could pipe P25 audio into the Syntor. I've got a double-vocode P25 vehicular simplex repeater and it works just fine.

What kind of programming and keyloading infrastructure is required for Securenet on Syntors?

I am using a T3011DX I am pretty certain a BX, CX will also work for DES-XL Maybe even an AX. There is a HIROSE connector on main radio plug for the Securenet version of the mobile control cable.

(source Doug Graham)	DVP	DVP-XL	DES	DES-XL	DES-OFB	DVI-XL	AES-256
T3010	X
T3011			X	X	X
T3014		X
T3012						X
T3013						X
T3020			X
KVL 3000	X	X	X	X	X	X
KVL 3000+		X	X	X	X	X	X
KVL3000+ can also load UCM-based ADP encryption - but flash determines algos in the loader.

Radio programming for the X9000 is DOS based. The control head and radio have separate executables. I just went through upgrading some radios for 128 mode and so can answer most any questions. I had a lot of help getting this far and will be happy to pass on that knowledge and any resources.

A Securenet CAPABLE low band Syntor X9000 radio will have an FCC certification of ABZ89FT1612 . The model number will contain KXJ (T71KXJ7J04AK). If it is equipped with a Securenet OPTION board, it will be found inside a large metal can on the personality board and will have an encryption hybrid. Be careful removing and installing the can to get the aluminum pins oriented properly. You apparently can upgrade a non Securenet capable radio, but there may be some jumpers and adjustments required to the personality board, or a replacement personality board if incompatible.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

It would sound pretty bad, but in theory you could pipe P25 audio into the Syntor. I've got a double-vocode P25 vehicular simplex repeater and it works just fine.

What kind of programming and keyloading infrastructure is required for Securenet on Syntors?

Which Simplex Repeater are you using? I have considered doing this myself.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

There has supposedly been a quantity of about 100 RF Technology Eclispe 3's that have been filled to a US .gov agency in a low band variant which are "not restricted from using P25 on low band" as the reciter module for the E3 is SDR based and covers VHF-Low, VHF-High, UHF, 700 and 800. I haven't talked to the guys over at RFTA about the super secret squirrel stuff they've been doing for a few years though...

I have searched high and low for any sort of repeater hardware that will regenerate 12 KbPS 2 level FSK data stream. I was think about modifying one of those early D-Star boards that use the modem chip for GMSK Node Adaptor developed by Satoshi Yasuda .

 

[DeoVindice]

Which Simplex Repeater are you using? I have considered doing this myself.

An Argent Data AD-SR1 connected to an EFJ 5300ES in dash mount configuration. I used one of the remote head cables with a DB15 connector and built an interface cable using an old Ethernet cable and DB15 solder connector. The controller is currently running on its own batteries, but the 5300 does have the ability to provide key-switched power via the DB15. I just need to check the voltage versus the AD-SR1's operating range.

 

[prcguy]

No military stuff with P25 in the VHF lo range which is 30-108MHz for current equipment. A few Harris Falcon series multiband hand helds have a P25 option but thats for VHF hi and above. The commercial Harris XG-100M mobile radio with VHF lo option should be able to do P25 in low band.

There is some military stuff that will do P25 and low band. No idea how you'd get hold of one, there's people here that have knowledge about such beasts.

There was a company at IWCE about 7 years ago that had a P25 capable low band repeater. I wish I could remember their name. I'll keep my eyes open this week and see if there is anyone there that has something suitable.

Kenwood has the NX-5600H, which is 39-50MHz and does analog and NXDN. Won't do P25, but NXDN works really well. It includes 56bit DES encryption and you can add AES256 if you want to go secret squirrel. Unfortunately they don't make any hand held low band radios anymore.
The NX-5600H is only available as an RF deck, you'd have to buy the control head and cable.
Theoretically, it's a firmware limitation, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest Kenwood wants to sell it as such. Maybe some day.
List price is $1783.00 for -just- the RF deck.

Low band is popular in other countries, so there may be other vendors.

 

[mmckenna]

No military stuff with P25 in the VHF lo range which is 30-108MHz for current equipment. A few Harris Falcon series multiband hand helds have a P25 option but thats for VHF hi and above. The commercial Harris XG-100M mobile radio with VHF lo option should be able to do P25 in low band.

I think the XL-200m has an exciter output for low band. I'm ordering a bunch of those and will have to give it a try. Might need to creatively procure a low band amplifier.

 

[prcguy]

How much juice does it put out on low band? I have several amps that are wideband 30-520MHz but they measure the incoming frequency and select a -70dBc low pass filter. These amps take in roughly 1 to 5 watts and put out between 18 and 40w depending on model and operating voltage.

I think the XL-200m has an exciter output for low band. I'm ordering a bunch of those and will have to give it a try. Might need to creatively procure a low band amplifier.