Potential DMR use on FRS/GMRS

[apleschu]

I know this comes up every few weeks and every time the answer is the same: No, according to the rules you cannot use DMR on GMRS. And until 1 week ago I was of exactly the same opinion after having read the rules. Then I ran across the Retevis RT40. FCC ID: 2AN96DM17201

When you read the description of the radio and the description in the FCC database then one can clearly see that this is a full fledged DMR radio WITH an FCC ID.

Now playing stupid, if Joe Blow customer sees a radio with an official FCC ID, and even more so a radio with an FCC ID that can be verified and really is in the FCC database, one could argue by the way of approving a FRS/GMRS radio with DMR the FCC has implicitly approved DMR on GMRS?

 

[Hans13]

So it begins...

 

[apleschu]

I am not sure why you are saying...

 

[mmckenna]

Now playing stupid, if Joe Blow customer sees a radio with an official FCC ID, and even more so a radio with an FCC ID that can be verified and really is in the FCC database, one could argue by the way of approving a FRS/GMRS radio with DMR the FCC has implicitly approved DMR on GMRS?

One could argue, but they'd still be wrong.

There are a lot of radios out there that have multiple certifications. The rules for the radio part you are operating under still apply.

Many Kenwood digital radios have Part 90, Part 80 and Part 95 certifications.
That doesn't mean they can run digital on Part 95, or Part 80. It just means the radio has the capability.

It's still the responsibility of the licensee to know and understand ALL the rules that apply and abide by them.
This is part of holding the FCC license, or even operating on the "License by rule" services.

 

[apleschu]

One could argue, but they'd still be wrong.

There are a lot of radios out there that have multiple certifications. The rules for the radio part you are operating under still apply.

Many Kenwood digital radios have Part 90, Part 80 and Part 95 certifications.
That doesn't mean they can run digital on Part 95, or Part 80. It just means the radio has the capability.

It's still the responsibility of the licensee to know and understand ALL the rules that apply and abide by them.
This is part of holding the FCC license, or even operating on the "License by rule" services.

Have you looked at the FCC description of this radio? This is a FRS/GMRS Radio only. Not just any part 95 radio. This is specifically a part 95B (FRS) that was apparently type accepted by the FCC.

 

[Hans13]

I am not sure why you are saying...

So begins the infiltration of DMR into FRS and, eventually, GMRS.

 

[Skypilot007]

So begins the infiltration of DMR into FRS and, eventually, GMRS.

I would welcome DMR on GMRS. It would certainly help with the some of the unlicensed lids on there.

 

[apleschu]

So begins the infiltration of DMR into FRS and, eventually, GMRS.

With the blessing of the FCC no less

 

[mmckenna]

Have you looked at the FCC description of this radio? This is a FRS/GMRS Radio only. Not just any part 95 radio. This is specifically a part 95B (FRS) that was apparently type accepted by the FCC.

You are right. Looks like the FCC and the test lab screwed this up. Yet again the FCC is not paying attention to what they are doing.

I did look up the radio and see it's being sold for PMR use in Europe, so looks like they just tried to sneak it through the system to sell more of them. Probably would be worth someone dropping a note to the FCC and asking them what their plan is. Either the radio needs it's type acceptance pulled, or they need to open up the service to digital use by all manufacturers.

Many years ago Garmin got a waiver from the FCC to run digital GPS data over FRS. So, it could theoretically be done, but I'm not aware that any waivers have been granted.


Also, if you look at the grant, it's emission designators are not the "standard" ones. DMR is usually 7K60X#X. Narrow FM is usually 11K0F3E. We've seen the Chinese companies do this in the past. They run narrower FM deviation on the analog radios so the sloppy quality control will still fall within the limits.

 

[apleschu]

I would welcome DMR on GMRS. It would certainly help with the some of the unlicensed lids on there.

With that radio you have it on GMRS already. Just not yet with repeaters or high power. But there will be DMR on the GMRS channels.

 

[apleschu]

You are right. Looks like the FCC and the test lab screwed this up. Yet again the FCC is not paying attention to what they are doing.

I did look up the radio and see it's being sold for PMR use in Europe, so looks like they just tried to sneak it through the system to sell more of them. Probably would be worth someone dropping a note to the FCC and asking them what their plan is. Either the radio needs it's type acceptance pulled, or they need to open up the service to digital use by all manufacturers.

Many years ago Garmin got a waiver from the FCC to run digital GPS data over FRS. So, it could theoretically be done, but I'm not aware that any waivers have been granted.


Also, if you look at the grant, it's emission designators are not the "standard" ones. DMR is usually 7K60X#X. Narrow FM is usually 11K0F3E. We've seen the Chinese companies do this in the past. They run narrower FM deviation on the analog radios so the sloppy quality control will still fall within the limits.

I did see the emissions type. I was also wondering about that. At the same time, the manual very clearly states DMR. Somebody did not look and put one and one together.

 

[Hans13]

I would welcome DMR on GMRS. It would certainly help with the some of the unlicensed lids on there.

I'm not complaining by any stretch. We already have a few using DMR on GMRS simplex around here. I've been telling the locals that it is only a matter of time before DMR is used with regularity on GMRS. Hence, my comment, "So it begins..."

I used to be against it but warmed up to the idea after playing with DMR a little bit. I like the locate function and distance to partner function. As for the lid elimination, I kind of like hearing all kinds and being heard. IMHO, like in the days of CB, analog only can encourage younger people into radio. That's how I and many I know got interested when much younger; Citizen Band radio.

 

[Hans13]

Probably would be worth someone dropping a note to the FCC and asking them what their plan is. Either the radio needs it's type acceptance pulled, or they need to open up the service to digital use by all manufacturers.

If one was going to contact Uncle Charlie at all, it would be better to wait a few years and several lines of DMR radios granted later so that the FCC would be more likely to allow DMR.

 

[apleschu]

I'm not complaining by any stretch. We already have a few using DMR on GMRS simplex around here. I've been telling the locals that it is only a matter of time before DMR is used with regularity on GMRS. Hence, my comment, "So it begins..."

I used to be against it but warmed up to the idea after playing with DMR a little bit. I like the locate function and distance to partner function. As for the lid elimination, I kind of like hearing all kinds and being heard. IMHO, like in the days of CB, analog only can encourage younger people into radio. That's how I and many I know got interested when much younger; Citizen Band radio.

I would also welcome DMR to GMRS. Once one has experienced DMR IMHO there is no going back. The linking of repeaters is dead simple, you can call someone direct without bothering everybody else with your conversation, you can have two conversations on the same channel, the voice quality is much better, and the list goes on.

The only drawback is the more complicated programming for folks that have no idea what they are doing. I do hope they(the manufacturers) will limit the AllCall in radios.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I thought PMR in Europe was based on NXDN instead of DMR.

 

[chief21]

After looking it up, it appears as if the European PMR service is analog, while the dPMR service is FDMA. DMR, as we know, is TDMA and therefore, would be incompatible.

 

[nd5y]

I thought PMR in Europe was based on NXDN instead of DMR.

Europe has dPMR, dPMR446 and NXDN (also DMR).

NXDN only uses the AMBE+2 vocoder (as does DMR and P25).

dPMR446 and dPMR can use:
Vocoder Class R RALCWI
Vocoder Class A AMBE+2
Vocoder Class M manufacturer specific

 

[nd5y]

deleted double post

 

[n1das]

I thought PMR in Europe was based on NXDN instead of DMR.

dPMR is 6.25k NXDN, IIRC. I have a pair of CCRs made by TYT that do dPMR digital and plain old analog. I used to own several Kenwood NEXEDGE UHF NX-300 portables and they did 12.5k and 6.25k NXDN. In tests on 440 simplex with the TYT and NX-300 radios, I found the NX-300 would detect the 6.25k dPMR traffic but would not produce any audio. The TYT radio would not detect 6.25k NXDN from the NX-300 at all. Listening to the raw undecoded data stream from each on an analog radio sounded the same.

I get what others are saying about digital... once you go digital you don't want to go back to analog. I too have been bitten by the digital radio bug from ham DMR use.

I thought about digital and my use of GMRS/FRS. Given that the vast majority of my GMRS/FRS and occasionally MURS usage over the years and to this day has been for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends, I looked into digital alternatives. I was also looking for a place to go given the possibility of GMRS becoming a license by rule bubble pack only service. Thankfully that didn't happen with the new rules but it didn't stop me from looking at digital alternatives to GMRS.

I moved my local simplex ops with family and friends to Motorola DTR and DLR series 900MHz FHSS digital radios. They work EXCELLENT and better than simplex on GMRS. And while not encrypted, they can be made VERY secure. A coworker asked me "why not just use FRS?" My answer was that I have already been doing that since FRS was created in 1996 and longer than that as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using high quality Part 90/95 commercial gear. I am looking for an all-digital solution that is higher quality and more professional than GMRS.

I would love to use DMR, P25 and NXDN digital modes on GMRS but that will probably never happen legally.


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[prcguy]

Awhile back one of my friends and partner in a big GMRS system was having lunch with one of his higher ranking friends at the FCC and somehow GMRS came up in the conversation. My friend was left with an option to apply for an STA to run MOTOTRBO on GMRS as an experimental station. This is because its otherwise not legal to run any digital modes on GMRS.

Our GMRS system here has not been used in awhile and my partner never applied for the STA due to lack of interest, but I might see if that offer from the FCC can be resurrected.