Private DMR Communications

[J_edgerton]

Iv'e done research on this topic with not much luck. So i figured I'd ask the experts. Is there such a feature within a DMR repeater that would allow for selective DMR ID acceptance? Such as the repeater having programmed and stored a list of pre-registered ID's to accept? I know with DMR being of an "open" standard I would imagine this would probably be a long shot but I just wanted to reach out and see what I could learn. Also, does a single "stand-alone" repeater pass through data such as user ID's, stun, kill, revive functions?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance!

 

[buddrousa]

I know this is in TRUNKING systems not sure about STANDALONE CONVENTIONAL.

 

[sonm10]

I know yaesu Fusion has something your talking about called Group Monitor (GM) (I've never used), so DMR must have something similar

 

[chief21]

Most commercial DMR repeaters probably have some type of access control. Motorola DMR repeaters have the RAS (Restricted Access to System) option; Kenwood and ICOM may have something similar.

 

[N4KVE]

My friend owns about 7 Hytera repeaters. Any user that wants to use them must ask, & give him their DMR ID. He then enters it into his repeater. Without this, they can not access his repeaters. Nothing to do with RAS.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Iv'e done research on this topic with not much luck. So i figured I'd ask the experts. Is there such a feature within a DMR repeater that would allow for selective DMR ID acceptance? Such as the repeater having programmed and stored a list of pre-registered ID's to accept? I know with DMR being of an "open" standard I would imagine this would probably be a long shot but I just wanted to reach out and see what I could learn. Also, does a single "stand-alone" repeater pass through data such as user ID's, stun, kill, revive functions?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance!

A conventional repeater can have white and black lists for talkgroups and RID's. Yes, RID's are passed through a conventional repeater. I've never played with stun, kill and revive with my DMR gear.

 

[Forts]

Of course it's easy enough to spoof a RID if that's the only protection. RAS plus encryption is definitely the most robust setup.

 

[alcahuete]

RAS can be used with a key or with IDs. There are a couple systems I manage where we use ID, since only Motorola radios will take a RAS key. So you can't use that in a mixed radio system. As @Forts mentioned, it's easy to spoof.

 

[J_edgerton]

Most commercial DMR repeaters probably have some type of access control. Motorola DMR repeaters have the RAS (Restricted Access to System) option; Kenwood and ICOM may have something similar.
[/QUOT

Ok good deal. I’ve been researching on some moto units like the XPR-8300 as well as Vertex Standard EVX-R70 but haven’t really found any videos or forums online about accessing RAS. I appreciate the reply!

 

[J_edgerton]

My friend owns about 7 Hytera repeaters. Any user that wants to use them must ask, & give him their DMR ID. He then enters it into his repeater. Without this, they can not access his repeaters. Nothing to do with RAS.

Ive looked at some of those Hytera units and they look pretty stout. Kindly expensive though. I’ve mainly been researching this more on the moto XPR-8300s and Vertex Standard EVX-R70. That’s good to know though and I appreciate it!

 

[kayn1n32008]

Ok good deal. I’ve been researching on some moto units like the XPR-8300 as well as Vertex Standard EVX-R70 but haven’t really found any videos or forums online about accessing RAS. I appreciate the reply!

RAS is an access restriction method. It hashes the signaling headers, and prevents subscribers from accessing the repeater, or decoding signals from the repeater, unless you have the correct RAS code. RAS is proprietary to Motorola.

 

[alcahuete]

Ok good deal. I’ve been researching on some moto units like the XPR-8300 as well as Vertex Standard EVX-R70 but haven’t really found any videos or forums online about accessing RAS. I appreciate the reply!

It's very simple, actually. Once you purchase the entitlement key (most brand new repeaters come with this, SLRs for example, but the 8300/8400 will not unless the previous owner purchased it), you get a screen under Security that looks like this:




If you want to use a RAS key, Authentication gets set to Enabled, you set up the Authentication Key.

If you want to use Radio IDs, you check the Radio ID Range Check, and then set up the radio IDs below that. I don't recall specifically off the top of my head, but I believe you can only have 64 entries. So if it's a large system, you need to specify ranges as opposed to individual IDs. Again, that method is very easy to spoof. Somebody just has to program their radio to one of the allowed IDs and voila, they are on your system. Better than nothing though. With the Authentication Key, they absolutely will not get on your system unless they have the key. As was mentioned, that method is proprietary and only works with Motorola radios. Thus in a mixed radio environment, the Radio ID Range Check is your only option, aside from encryption.

 

[chief21]

@J_edgerton

I don't think you've mentioned whether your interest involves amateur frequencies or commercial frequencies. If commercial, encryption would be an option for more enhanced privacy - but not for amateur.

 

[kayn1n32008]

If you want to use a RAS key, Authentication gets set to Enabled, you set up the Authentication Key.

If you want to use Radio IDs, you check the Radio ID Range Check, and then set up the radio IDs below that. I don't recall specifically off the top of my head, but I believe you can only have 64 entries. So if it's a large system, you need to specify ranges as opposed to individual IDs. Again, that method is very easy to spoof. Somebody just has to program their radio to one of the allowed IDs and voila, they are on your system. Better than nothing though. With the Authentication Key, they absolutely will not get on your system unless they have the key. As was mentioned, that method is proprietary and only works with Motorola radios. Thus in a mixed radio environment, the Radio ID Range Check is your only option, aside from encryption.

Better to stay in a non-mixed environment. Use RAS, and lock down both RID's and Talkgeoups.

 

[kayn1n32008]

@J_edgerton

I don't think you've mentioned whether your interest involves amateur frequencies or commercial frequencies. If commercial, encryption would be an option for more enhanced privacy - but not for amateur.

Depends where he lives. I can legally use encryption where I live on ham bands. There are some stipulations in the rules.

 

[alcahuete]

Better to stay in a non-mixed environment. Use RAS, and lock down both RID's and Talkgeoups.

Agreed, but that just isn't always possible, unfortunately.

 

[J_edgerton]

@J_edgerton

I don't think you've mentioned whether your interest involves amateur frequencies or commercial frequencies. If commercial, encryption would be an option for more enhanced privacy - but not for amateur.

The question was aimed more towards the commercial side. It would be a bit counterproductive utilizing restrictions on the armature side.

 

[ramal121]

Is there such a feature within a DMR repeater that would allow for selective DMR ID acceptance? Such as the repeater having programmed and stored a list of pre-registered ID's to accept?

A Kenwood DMR repeater will filter access by either Individual ID or Group ID. Up to 1000 entries. Works across manufacturers and models. It does not have RAS though.

Also, does a single "stand-alone" repeater pass through data such as user ID's, stun, kill, revive functions?

For a conventional repeater, yes.

 

[n1das]

RAS is an access restriction method. It hashes the signaling headers, and prevents subscribers from accessing the repeater, or decoding signals from the repeater, unless you have the correct RAS code. RAS is proprietary to Motorola.

Is Motorola RAS similar to what Hytera calls Signaling Frame Encrypt in their repeaters and subscribers? (Did Hytera also copy RAS in addition to everything else Motorola sued them for?)

A key for Hytera's Signaling Frame Encrypt has 32 hexadecimal digits (128 bits). When programming a Signaling Frame Encrypt key in a Hytera repeater or subscriber unit, 32 hex digits have to be entered. Entering less than 32 hex digits causes the remaining least significant digits in the key to be padded with "F" to fill out 32 hexadecimal digits.

 

[exkalibur]

RAS and AES. In the repeater, you can disallow radio ID ranges, so you can at least narrow it down a bit as well. Do this, and you'll be 100% secure, and nobody can access your repeater.