Question about 900mhz system

[tilt404]

Maybe someone here can help me with this since my submission was rejected and I still think something strange is happening with this and hope to understand it better than just getting a rejection and giving up. The system I'm talking about is this one:

KELCOM (900 MHz) Trunking System, Windsor, Ontario - Scanner Frequencies

A Motorola Type II Smartnet 900MHz system. It lists a bunch of 900mhz frequencies there including some CCs.

Well, last night I hooked the scanner to unitrunker with that system in it and ran it. What it showed me was that I was missing 6 more frequencies for the system and the CC. It kept saying 'find missing frequency' next to what it believed was the correct CC. Why would it do this and come up with this if I only gave it the 900mhz frequencies listed on RR, unless it was getting this info from the signal coming in?

So then I hooked it to trunker88 and it slowly, one after another in auto detect mode, came up with the 6 missing frequencies, one of which being the missing CC with the same LCN that unitrunker said it belonged to. It never came up with any of the 900mhz frequencies. Also the same casino tgid's were coming up on the screen, so it was reading the casino using just those 6 frequencies.

Then I went back to unitrunker and filled in those missing 6 to the site frequencies, and then it came up with a bandplan for this system. I attached a screen cap of the channels listed where you can see the 900mhz ones from RR listed then the 6 at the bottom that were found and added. Also attached in the image the bandplan it came up with. The hits are low since I just started it when that cap was taken, but I ran it all night and still none of the 900mhz frequencies have any hits, there are around 500-600 hits on each of the new 800mhz frequencies, except the CC.

At industry canada it shows these 800mhz ones are registered to telus. So I'm wondering what is going on here? Other than just being rejected I hope someone can explain a bit more why unitrunker told me I was missing 6 frequencies for this system, then trunker88 found them. I know in the past the casino had trouble with radios in the building on an old system they were on. Could it be they are using these other frequencies in combination with the 900mhz ones to better communicate in that huge building? I don't know, just looking for some answers so I can better understand and learn, instead of just giving up.

The thing is, my scanner was still picking up tgid's and communication with the 900mhz frequencies from RR I linked to above. Yet both unitrunker and trunk88 felt like these other 6 800mhz frequencies were more connected to the system. I don't know if I have two different systems here or one. All along, only the casino tgid's have come up. Even when I look at the site in unitrunker live when the tgid's pop up next to the frequencies, they pop up only next to the 6 800mhz ones, not the 900mhz ones. Can you see why I'm so confused? The casino isn't the only one using this system also, as you can see from the link.

 

[tilt404]

screen cap of updated hits

Here's a screen cap from right now, since it's been running all night and you can see the hits. Thought I would post this since I took the screen cap of the other one soon after starting up the program. You can see how not a single 900mhz frequency had a single hit all night.

 

[mikewazowski]

What your screenshots show me is you seem to be sitting on an 800Mhz control channel which has nothing to do with the 900Mhz system you submitted your data for. A 900Mhz system will have a 900Mhz control channel, frequencies and bandplan. It will not have any 800Mhz frequencies, band plans or control channels.

You say you ran Unitrunker and it said you were missing 6 more frequencies and the control channel. I'm curious as to how you're missing the control channel since Unitrunker obviously must be monitoring something?

I think somehow you managed to latch onto an unrelated system which has nothing to do with the 900Mhz system you submitted your info for.

I don't run Unitrunker so I can't help you there. In Trunk88, you might have to match sure you change the band setting so it knows you're on a 900Mhz system.

What frequency does your scanner show when Unitrunker and Trunk88 are monitoring this system and giving you the 800Mhz systems?

 

[tilt404]

Confusing eh? I'm putting in just the 800mhz frequencies now and will run the scanner and see what comes up without any software, just in the scanner, scanning. Will let you know.

That's what I can't figure out also how unitrunker told me i was missing something, especially the CC, yet tgid's kept flowing in. I know other systems don't always need a cc though like LTR. But didn't think uni did LTR systems.

What frequency uni and trunker shows me when monitoring it are just the 800mhz ones and especially that one CC in red in unitrunker or with a c next to it in trunker. Trunker didn't even see any 900mhz ones, just came up with the 800mhz ones when I asked it to read from that system. I will run my scanner now with just the 800mhz ones in it and let you know what happens in a bit.

 

[mikewazowski]

But what does your scanner show for a frequency when Trunk88 is running??

It's not really confusing. Either you've got some configuring to do in Unitrunker or Trunk88 or you've found a new system.

Park your scanner on 860.2375Mhz without letting Unitrunker or Trunk88 control your scanner and see what they find for a control channel, frequencies and system ID.

Do the same for the 900Mhz control channel.

It's possible that the two systems are somehow linked but neither one would advertise the other one.

 

[tilt404]

In trunk88 it shows what I saw in the screen cap below. My scanner shows no frequencies when running. I have a PSR800 and it just shows the system name, only in the software (uni/trunk88) will i see the frequencies it stops on. The 6 800mhz frequencies with the one control channel are the ones it stops on, never the 900mhz ones. Didn't even read any of the 900mhz ones even after I made the changes in the settings and specified a 900mhz system, quit and restarted trunk88. I just tried to scan just the 800mhz ones but the scanner doesn't have enough info to do so. I guess I would have to fill out a custom trunking table using that bandplan info in the screen cap above, but don't know how to get the offsets.

 

[mikewazowski]

You might want to read this thread: http://forums.radioreference.com/trunking-control-channel-decoding/233549-488-rules.html

It gives the steps needed to setup a 900Mhz system on Trunk88.

I suspect your seeing 800 MHz frequencies because you haven't setup the software properly.

 

[tilt404]

Ok, I remember seeing that in trunk when setting it up, but unitrunker is different and runs fine for me every time with other systems how I have it set up and doesn't do what it did to this system. I only use trunk88 for fleetnet. But that aside, I use unitrunker and pro96com mainly, but this isn't a p25 system to didn't use pro96com, just uni. Unitrunker was set properly though and was reading ok, but for some reason, like that first screen cap, kept telling me I was missing those frequencies and next to those frequencies was where the tgid's kept showing up.

I did go through the settings in trunk88 though and tell it is was a motorola type II 900mhz system after that screen cap, but still came up with those 6 800mhz frequencies. I will keep trying to sort this out. Going to go back to trunk88 and see if I can find the offset for the custom table. In the gre ezscan software I use for the psr800, I have all other info, like the ch-lo, ch-hi, base freq and step, just not the offsets for each.

 

[mikewazowski]

Park your scanner on 860.2375Mhz without letting Unitrunker or Trunk88 control your scanner and see what they find for a control channel, frequencies and system ID.

Do the same for the 900Mhz control channel.

Did you do this??

If you program 860.2375Mhz into your scanner as a conventional channel, what do you hear??

 

[tilt404]

I just put it into my ham handheld right now since the scanner is running trunk but nothing heard on that frequency. I went into trunk and changed the settings in the .ctl file to match a 900mhz system, and other settings, but still comes up when it starts on those 6 800mhz ones. Tells me current control channel is 860.2375. Shows it actively working fine in trunk, hitting all the tgids and stuff, each of the 6 freqs other than the cc, having rid and tgid hits. Hits relating to the casino system. But still nothing heard on that freq on my ham radio parked on it. Still confused.

If I do it for the 900mhz CC's I don't hear any CC like noise for the 2 900mhz CC's listed on RR also for this system.

Parked it on the 860.2375 now on the scanner like you said, but no info coming up, hearing some noise but not like a proper cc. I tried parking it on the CC's from the 900 but nothing, like I did last night too, I did hear cc noise though on 939.6250 which is one of the freq's listed for the system on RR but not specified as a CC. On the ones listed as cc's for the system I hear people talking on their radios from the casino.

 

[tilt404]

the missing ones

I thought the first image I posted here showed the missing ones, but didn't so here is the image when it showed me the last 6 frequencies were missing, yet they had all the hits. So just posting this so you can see that image.

 

[tilt404]

Sorry for all the posts, I tried again using the link you gave and it finally put in the 900mhz freqs into trunk88. only 6 of them, shows 939.6250 now as the CC which I knew all along from listening to it on the vfo of my ham radio. So trunk now shows:

939.5875
939.6125
939.6250 c
939.6500
939.6750
939.6875

So its in the proper mode now and stuff. Showing tgid's and rids fine for the system. Hasn't found all the freqs listed for that system as it is listed on RR though, but I will keep watching it.

I keep watching the scanner since it shows the vc/cc every time someone talks, and so far has only shown those frequencies above, not all the rest listed for the system on rr, but I will keep watching.

 

[tilt404]

Thanks for your help Mike. I will keep the vc/cc info enabled on my psr800 from now on since if I had that enabled, it could of cleared this up late last night because it never shows what was listed on RR as the cc's, as the same cc's. Just shows 939.6250 as the cc every time someone talks from listening now. Shows the voice channel too, and that always lines up with one of the freq's I listed above.

Like you said the software wasn't set up right, but something was still fishy with so many freq's listed on RR for the system, yet so few showing hits in the software. Glad its sorted out in my head now and feel like the confusion is solved. Systems often change, so maybe something changed and the RR list got a bit out of date. As far as I can see from listening now just those frequencies listed above in my previous comment are in use. Makes sense to me even since at industry canada, there's only 7 frequencies in that range registered to kelcom, not 15 like shown on RR. I know IC often has errors too though. Thanks again for your help and patience.