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Radio will not Rx unless close to repeater...Odd situation
- Thread starter jcefd10
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
For a simple example...
I have a marine AIS receiver located on a building that is at about 1000 feet above sea level. This receiver listens in on two frequencies for ships sending out position data. This is VHF, about 162MHz. Simple 3db gain antenna, good coax, good receiver. The site overlooks the pacific ocean.
Normally, I can easily pick up ships 60 miles away no problem. When atmosphere is cooperating, tropospheric ducting will bring in ships 500 miles away.
Not fancy equipment, not on the level of what you are likely using on your repeater, but not crappy stuff either.
Location and a cooperating atmosphere makes it pretty easy.
What you are experiencing is not really that exceptional. It's something that should have been caught before that frequency was used.
I have a marine AIS receiver located on a building that is at about 1000 feet above sea level. This receiver listens in on two frequencies for ships sending out position data. This is VHF, about 162MHz. Simple 3db gain antenna, good coax, good receiver. The site overlooks the pacific ocean.
Normally, I can easily pick up ships 60 miles away no problem. When atmosphere is cooperating, tropospheric ducting will bring in ships 500 miles away.
Not fancy equipment, not on the level of what you are likely using on your repeater, but not crappy stuff either.
Location and a cooperating atmosphere makes it pretty easy.
What you are experiencing is not really that exceptional. It's something that should have been caught before that frequency was used.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No. It's going to do one or the other, not both.
The only other thing that could make sense was if someone was running a mobile extender on the frequency.
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- Feb 13, 2017
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I'm at a loss. It really sucks to have the county have spent all this huge amount of money upgrading only to have it worse than it was with the previous system. .
I used to talk skip on my CB base station a lot back in the day. I have a 50' tower in my yard withing to be assembled
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
I used to talk skip on my CB base station a lot back in the day. I have a 50' tower in my yard withing to be assembled
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
WA0CBW
Member
This sounds like an easily demonstrated problem. What do the techs say when you show them this?
BB
BB
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
The issue is pretty plain, and the install techs should have noticed it. The frequency coordinator should have known better. The system should not have been turned over without proper testing. The frequency coordinator should have known that there was a co-channel user 80 miles away and should have planned for this. He/she didn't. Someone screwed up and it wasn't you.
Short answer is you guys got screwed. I'd recommend talking to the shop and frequency coordinator and tell them what's going on. Give them a chance to make it right. If they don't, time to talk to your city/county attorney about this. They screwed up, not you.
This is a life safety issue. Sounds like it would be pretty easy to miss a page. This could get your department in trouble pretty quick if it's not addressed. Be firm with the shop/coordinator, but give the a chance to fix this.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
All these things are easy to test, and they should have done so. If they are grasping at straws like this, that's a bad sign. Might be time to find another shop.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No. If anything, it might actually make it worse.
Might be time to get a third party in there to look at this. There are consultants that specialize in public safety radio systems. Getting them to look at this issue would be worth the few hundred bucks it would cost. They could write up the paper work to give to the shop/coordinator as well as the city/county attorney. I'd be careful about trying to fight this battle on your own. You've identified the issue where the shop couldn't. It shouldn't be up to you to fix it.
I'd say that this could go sideways pretty quick if a call gets missed. I'd really talk to your county/city about this right away.
On the rr site there is a vast database that has all you need and updated daily
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Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Radio Reference is a good source of info, but I prefer to get my data straight from the source:
ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Trunked License - WQPP657 - BELLWOOD VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT
You can look up any licensed user using the FCC search tool here: License Search - Advanced License Search
If you go to the first link above, click on the "Frequencies" tab. On the second page of frequencies, you'll find your 159.450MHz frequency. If you click on that frequency on the line with the "FB8" station class, it'll bring up more data on that specific frequency.
FB8 is a trunked system
Anyway, when you click on the frequency, it'll bring up another page. That pages lists the following emission designators:
11K2F3E (FM narrow band analog)
8K30F1E (Narrow NXDN 12.5KHz voice)
8K30F7W (Narrow NXDN 12.5KHz voice and data)
So, FB8 means its a trunked system. 8K30F1E and 8K30F7W means it's 12.5KHz narrow NXDN.
Back on the main frequency page, you'll see that they are running 50 watts output power (output from the repeater) with an ERP of 300 watts. ERP is a total of all the system losses and all the system gains. If their repeater is putting out 50 watts but they have a 300 watt ERP (Effective Radiated Power), it means they are running a high gain antenna. High gain antennas get their gain by compressing the radiation pattern so more energy is directed at the horizon. If they are running an antenna with some downtilt, a way of focusing the power a bit more down towards the ground, that means not quite so much is pointed at the horizon.
Still, 300 watts ERP is enough to hit you pretty hard at 80 miles. Many NOAA weather transmitters are running 300 watts and they have some amazing coverage.
Looking at the "locations" tab, you can get some more information.
It'll list the sites they use for their equipment plus the "mobile" area. Their mobile area is 25 kilometer radius around their repeaters. Again, 300 watts to cover about 15.5 miles is a lot. From the looks of this system, it's coverage is much more than what they are licensed for.
Also, 6 trunked channels for 200 radios (shown on the frequency tab) is way overkill.
But, the problem here isn't their design, but more about how their system is interfering with yours.
Also, I noticed on your license, you do not have the NXDN emission designator listed, just the narrow band FM. This is something you need to have fixed (radio shop should be able to do it) It's important for frequency coordinators to know exactly what you are running. Also, the FCC could technically cause some heartburn if you are operating on emissions you are not technically licensed for. But again, this isn't the core issue.
ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Trunked License - WQPP657 - BELLWOOD VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT
You can look up any licensed user using the FCC search tool here: License Search - Advanced License Search
If you go to the first link above, click on the "Frequencies" tab. On the second page of frequencies, you'll find your 159.450MHz frequency. If you click on that frequency on the line with the "FB8" station class, it'll bring up more data on that specific frequency.
FB8 is a trunked system
Anyway, when you click on the frequency, it'll bring up another page. That pages lists the following emission designators:
11K2F3E (FM narrow band analog)
8K30F1E (Narrow NXDN 12.5KHz voice)
8K30F7W (Narrow NXDN 12.5KHz voice and data)
So, FB8 means its a trunked system. 8K30F1E and 8K30F7W means it's 12.5KHz narrow NXDN.
Back on the main frequency page, you'll see that they are running 50 watts output power (output from the repeater) with an ERP of 300 watts. ERP is a total of all the system losses and all the system gains. If their repeater is putting out 50 watts but they have a 300 watt ERP (Effective Radiated Power), it means they are running a high gain antenna. High gain antennas get their gain by compressing the radiation pattern so more energy is directed at the horizon. If they are running an antenna with some downtilt, a way of focusing the power a bit more down towards the ground, that means not quite so much is pointed at the horizon.
Still, 300 watts ERP is enough to hit you pretty hard at 80 miles. Many NOAA weather transmitters are running 300 watts and they have some amazing coverage.
Looking at the "locations" tab, you can get some more information.
It'll list the sites they use for their equipment plus the "mobile" area. Their mobile area is 25 kilometer radius around their repeaters. Again, 300 watts to cover about 15.5 miles is a lot. From the looks of this system, it's coverage is much more than what they are licensed for.
Also, 6 trunked channels for 200 radios (shown on the frequency tab) is way overkill.
But, the problem here isn't their design, but more about how their system is interfering with yours.
Also, I noticed on your license, you do not have the NXDN emission designator listed, just the narrow band FM. This is something you need to have fixed (radio shop should be able to do it) It's important for frequency coordinators to know exactly what you are running. Also, the FCC could technically cause some heartburn if you are operating on emissions you are not technically licensed for. But again, this isn't the core issue.
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- Feb 13, 2017
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That I have no idea about, and it's not even on me to try and fix it. But I do however , want it to work right. I've been on the FD for 14 years and have yet to have a problem until now.
I'm.going to get the chief to get them to do 2 test pages, so that I know they are coming and can video them. Itd better show y'all how odd these things act. It just irritates me BC I feel it's something simple.
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
I'm.going to get the chief to get them to do 2 test pages, so that I know they are coming and can video them. Itd better show y'all how odd these things act. It just irritates me BC I feel it's something simple.
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
It could be a joint fd area, more regional it is very common.
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Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
Is your radio a icom or kenwood?
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Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
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