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Radio will not Rx unless close to repeater...Odd situation
- Thread starter jcefd10
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2017
- Messages
- 186
Thank you for that link!
So, I've been reading up some, and I have the software open Infront of me and I read that you can fine tune the sensitivity /alignment ofnthe DPL dec/enc squelch ?? I know I'm not saying that correctly, but in the tuning side of the software, would that be the dqt deviation ?
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
So, I've been reading up some, and I have the software open Infront of me and I read that you can fine tune the sensitivity /alignment ofnthe DPL dec/enc squelch ?? I know I'm not saying that correctly, but in the tuning side of the software, would that be the dqt deviation ?
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
It's an NexEdge Trunked system, so it's running a control channel 24x7. That's likely what you are hearing.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
It's under Program > Test Mode. You'll have to be hooked up to the radio for it to show anything. It won't work without being hooked up.
I'd suggest not adjusting it unless you have the proper test equipment. If you do adjust it, write down the settings first so you don't lose them. This data is NOT saved in the software as part of the programming file. The settings also vary from radio to radio based off of component differences. Settings for one radio will not apply to another. Each radio will need to be adjusted based on what the test equipment tells you.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
The NexEdge control channel, likely on your repeater input, won't have a QT/DQT tone, so it won't open the repeater. When someone else transmits, the repeater opens and it's going to hear some of the trunked system control channel. That's likely what you are hearing, at least that's what it sounds like in the video. When the QT/DQT goes away, the repeater closes and it won't pass the control channel signal.
When you are closer to the repeater, your signal is stronger and likely is overpowering the weak control channel signal.
Again, hard to determine exact issue off a short video and what limited info we can get without having test equipment plugged in.
When you are closer to the repeater, your signal is stronger and likely is overpowering the weak control channel signal.
Again, hard to determine exact issue off a short video and what limited info we can get without having test equipment plugged in.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
OK, I had some free time so I did some more digging in the FCC data bases....
WQPP677, the volunteer fire company in Alabama has been on that frequency (159.450) in one way or another since 16 July 2012
Your agency was granted use of that frequency 30 November 2016.
So, this falls under the "they were there first" heading.
At this point, I was going to say your frequency coordinator screwed up, but I did some more looking, this time at your agency license. Sit down for this one:
Looking at your agencies FCC license, the 159.450MHz frequency that is the root of the issue here, and is probably picking up interference from the user in Alabama is only licensed for 5 watts mobile use on your end. If your agency is using it as a repeater input with more than 5 watts, then that's an issue. You either are only running 5 watts out of your radio to reach the repeater (if you are doing what your license allows) or you are operating outside of what your license permits.
The radio shop you are using is not paying attention to what they are doing. They may even be setting you guys up to operate outside the limits of your FCC license, and since your county Sheriffs office is the licensee, they'd be the one that would get a visit from the FCC.
An easy way to fix this would be to use another input frequency (that you are properly licensed for) for your repeater input.
Keep the 159.450 as a simplex channel at 5 watts, like the license says, and you likely won't have any issues.
Since the license shows 159.450 as 5 watts only for "mobile" use (includes hand held portable) then the frequency coordinator did this right. It should not be used as the repeater input, and I suspect the guy that requested that frequency on your license knew that. Why they are using it as a repeater input frequency now would beg the question "what they heck were they thinking?"
-------------------------------------------------
I know none of this is your fault and you are just trying to figure out what's going on and why it's not working as it's supposed to. What I do want to say is that it really looks like the radio shop isn't paying attention. It shouldn't be something that gets solved on a hobby internet site by a stranger on the other side of the country who's bored enough to dig into this. Somebody at the radio shop should be paying attention to this stuff and make sure it's done per what your county's FCC license allows. What it looks like they've done is put you guys in a bad position, not only with the interference issue (which could be a life safety issue), but also by setting you up to operate illegally (a legal issue).
If I was the Sheriff/Fire Cheif or whoever is in charge, I'd be having a long frank discussion with the radio shop. If they are taking your taxpayer dollars and doing this to you, then they have some serious explaining to do.
---------------------------------------------------
Also, did some work on the other agency info and discovered they are running a 3 channel NexEdge trunked system from 3 different locations. That makes a bit more sense for the number of users they have and the terrain they have to cover. Still, an expensive system, but I'm sure they have their needs and lots of taxpayer dollars.
Also, your agencies license does, in fact, show the NXDN emission designators, so you guys are OK there. Other than the power output issue and (likely) using the incorrect repeater input frequency.
On the other side of this, it's possible that in certain cases you guys could accidentally be interfering with their system, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.
Now, since I really am some stranger on the internet that is bored and willing to type all this out, I'd encourage you to look at your license yourself:
ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQIP470 - WEBSTER COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE
The 159.450 frequency is shown as 5 watts. If the radio shop has your radios running more than 5 watts, then they have made an error. Using a mobile radio at 5 watts to talk into a public safety repeater when there are other frequencies on the license that are allowed to use 45 or 110 watts would be odd, to say the least.
WQPP677, the volunteer fire company in Alabama has been on that frequency (159.450) in one way or another since 16 July 2012
Your agency was granted use of that frequency 30 November 2016.
So, this falls under the "they were there first" heading.
At this point, I was going to say your frequency coordinator screwed up, but I did some more looking, this time at your agency license. Sit down for this one:
Looking at your agencies FCC license, the 159.450MHz frequency that is the root of the issue here, and is probably picking up interference from the user in Alabama is only licensed for 5 watts mobile use on your end. If your agency is using it as a repeater input with more than 5 watts, then that's an issue. You either are only running 5 watts out of your radio to reach the repeater (if you are doing what your license allows) or you are operating outside of what your license permits.
The radio shop you are using is not paying attention to what they are doing. They may even be setting you guys up to operate outside the limits of your FCC license, and since your county Sheriffs office is the licensee, they'd be the one that would get a visit from the FCC.
An easy way to fix this would be to use another input frequency (that you are properly licensed for) for your repeater input.
Keep the 159.450 as a simplex channel at 5 watts, like the license says, and you likely won't have any issues.
Since the license shows 159.450 as 5 watts only for "mobile" use (includes hand held portable) then the frequency coordinator did this right. It should not be used as the repeater input, and I suspect the guy that requested that frequency on your license knew that. Why they are using it as a repeater input frequency now would beg the question "what they heck were they thinking?"
-------------------------------------------------
I know none of this is your fault and you are just trying to figure out what's going on and why it's not working as it's supposed to. What I do want to say is that it really looks like the radio shop isn't paying attention. It shouldn't be something that gets solved on a hobby internet site by a stranger on the other side of the country who's bored enough to dig into this. Somebody at the radio shop should be paying attention to this stuff and make sure it's done per what your county's FCC license allows. What it looks like they've done is put you guys in a bad position, not only with the interference issue (which could be a life safety issue), but also by setting you up to operate illegally (a legal issue).
If I was the Sheriff/Fire Cheif or whoever is in charge, I'd be having a long frank discussion with the radio shop. If they are taking your taxpayer dollars and doing this to you, then they have some serious explaining to do.
---------------------------------------------------
Also, did some work on the other agency info and discovered they are running a 3 channel NexEdge trunked system from 3 different locations. That makes a bit more sense for the number of users they have and the terrain they have to cover. Still, an expensive system, but I'm sure they have their needs and lots of taxpayer dollars.
Also, your agencies license does, in fact, show the NXDN emission designators, so you guys are OK there. Other than the power output issue and (likely) using the incorrect repeater input frequency.
On the other side of this, it's possible that in certain cases you guys could accidentally be interfering with their system, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.
Now, since I really am some stranger on the internet that is bored and willing to type all this out, I'd encourage you to look at your license yourself:
ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQIP470 - WEBSTER COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE
The 159.450 frequency is shown as 5 watts. If the radio shop has your radios running more than 5 watts, then they have made an error. Using a mobile radio at 5 watts to talk into a public safety repeater when there are other frequencies on the license that are allowed to use 45 or 110 watts would be odd, to say the least.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2017
- Messages
- 186
Man, I totally see what you mean! I have looked over the license for our county, and I have NO idea why that freq out of all the o es on that list that are able to be used, was picked. My portable is 5 watts, but the mobile is 45-50.
I do see a freq of 154.4000 that is listed as 45 watt mobile with 100 units. Also as a 50w in location 3 (primary tower) which would lead me to believe that possibly that freq was accuired for FD repeater but was overlooked? Not sure but I'm going to find out. Going to go by the radio shop today and present what you found.
I've been digging deep into the programming thinking the issue may have been there, or something was there I could alter to remedy the issue.
Now, if it were easy to see what the combiner was tuned at...
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
I do see a freq of 154.4000 that is listed as 45 watt mobile with 100 units. Also as a 50w in location 3 (primary tower) which would lead me to believe that possibly that freq was accuired for FD repeater but was overlooked? Not sure but I'm going to find out. Going to go by the radio shop today and present what you found.
I've been digging deep into the programming thinking the issue may have been there, or something was there I could alter to remedy the issue.
Now, if it were easy to see what the combiner was tuned at...
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
Yeah it would have been good enough you can have as little a .600 mhz and work ok
Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Yes, fire ground type simplex stuff. Due to the risk of co-channel interference, exactly like you are experiencing, this was done on purpose. For fire ground use, 5 watts is plenty and won't likely cause any interference.
Those frequency splits would be fine. I had a system once running a .450 offset. Repeater worked fine, but we had a lot of issues with receiver desense when two officers were too close together. The frequencies chosen was some sort of under the table swap the chief tried to do. Took some work to get that sorted out.
The 159/154 split will work great. The duplexers will need to be retuned, all your radios will need to be reprogrammed, but it should solve the issue.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Sure, if the repeater output is shown on your license as an FB2, and the location data is correct, then, sure. It's your agencies license.
The 159.450 could be used as a tactical simplex only channel for fire ground use. It's licensed, so might as well have it as a resource. Never know when you'll need an extra channel.
The 159.450 could be used as a tactical simplex only channel for fire ground use. It's licensed, so might as well have it as a resource. Never know when you'll need an extra channel.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I'll add....
If you have a good duplexer installed, the 155.6625 repeater output and the 154.400 repeater input won't be an issue, 1.2MHz is more than enough.
If you've got a cheap duplexer, you may benefit by having more separation between the frequencies.
Before you do this, though, make sure you listen in on the repeater input channel and make sure there isn't interference from somewhere else. You wouldn't want to go through this again.
If you have a good duplexer installed, the 155.6625 repeater output and the 154.400 repeater input won't be an issue, 1.2MHz is more than enough.
If you've got a cheap duplexer, you may benefit by having more separation between the frequencies.
Before you do this, though, make sure you listen in on the repeater input channel and make sure there isn't interference from somewhere else. You wouldn't want to go through this again.
1+ mmckenna
Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2017
- Messages
- 186
Site 3 - main site
Site 2 - countywide
Site 1 - secondary repeater
154.4000 is listed as a FB2 @ 100w at location 3(main tower) and also MO @ 45w. Location 2 (countywide)
155.6625 is a FB2 @ 100w at site 3 and MO 45w @ site 2 as well.
155.6625 is the current repeater output for our main fire repeater (mixed mode @ site 3) and also the backup analog repeater Intalled at site 1 with different DPL input tones to keep it from keying every time the fire pages are sent out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
Site 2 - countywide
Site 1 - secondary repeater
154.4000 is listed as a FB2 @ 100w at location 3(main tower) and also MO @ 45w. Location 2 (countywide)
155.6625 is a FB2 @ 100w at site 3 and MO 45w @ site 2 as well.
155.6625 is the current repeater output for our main fire repeater (mixed mode @ site 3) and also the backup analog repeater Intalled at site 1 with different DPL input tones to keep it from keying every time the fire pages are sent out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2017
- Messages
- 186
Small update.
The new combiner went in today. Several problems were found at the time of the swap! Mainly, a shorter coax end, and a defective connector on one repeater. All of that repaired, new combiner, preamp, filters, etc installed and so far it's MUCHHHHHHH better.
Now they're talking about a site move to use a taller tower in the area to use the terrain to its advantage
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
The new combiner went in today. Several problems were found at the time of the swap! Mainly, a shorter coax end, and a defective connector on one repeater. All of that repaired, new combiner, preamp, filters, etc installed and so far it's MUCHHHHHHH better.
Now they're talking about a site move to use a taller tower in the area to use the terrain to its advantage
Sent from my SAMSUNG S7.
WA0CBW
Member
I believe that would be considered a major modification to the license and would require re-coordination.
BB
BB
He is right, and more fees and if i was you, i would just buy new coax if they went that route
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Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk
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