Relationship between Alpha Tag and Description?

[b52hbuff]

The issue of how the Alpha Tag and Description should be 'linked' was discussed in some other thread. The concern is what is the expectation for how the information will be presented to the user. Prior to the HP-1, the assumption must have been made that scanners would display the Alpha Tag or maybe the Alpha Tag and the frequency. I've seen some Alpha Tags use frequency to disambiguate between several similar entries.

Anyway, here comes the HP-1. It doesn't display the Alpha Tag. It displays the description. Here is an example of a page that really shows the issue. Someone keys up on CLEMARS 20, and all the HP-1 user sees is 'Northern CA Use Only', and that isn't very useful because that is the same tag as CLEMARS 21.

The question is does the Description tell something 'about' the frequency? Or does it have to define the frequency? Because technically, if it is just 'about' the frequency, then 'Northern CA Use Only' is a valid, but useless tag.

I'd like some 'official policy' so we can get a resolution between RR.com staff/policy and how Uniden is going to actually present the data as it is displayed on the HP-1. I see these possible resolutions:
1. RR.com does nothing to clarify policy.
2. RR.com defines 'Description' as an 'adjective' field that describes something about a frequency instead of a 'noun' field that names the frequency.
3. RR.com defines 'Description' as a combined 'noun'/'adjective' field that labels the entry as well as providing more information about usage.
4. RR.com defines a 'Notes' or 'Usage' field for things like 'Northern CA Use Only'. Alpha Tag is used for scanners that support only a 12 character limit. And Description is used for a more meaningful/readable tag.
5. ...


Because once we define the real intent of the field, we can go back to Uniden/UPman and say, that the db usage is wrong and the HP-1 needs to display Alpha Tag *and* Description in order to identify a frequency. Or we end up making a ton of submission requests so that 'Description' fields actually provide useful information for folks who are using/going to be using the HP-1...

 

[loumaag]

Please take a look at this paragraph from the newest DB Admin Handbook, section 3.6:

The RR database entities (e.g., frequencies, talkgroups, categories, subcategories, descriptions, alpha tags, etc.) should never be added, removed, named, renamed or changed to adjust them for a specific device, product or consumer of RR data.

That said, the use of the Alpha Tag is well documented in the handbook, the description field is self-explanatory. I will admit there are entries, such as your example of CLEMARS that are improper. Indeed the entire entry, as you presented it, violates several guidelines.

Alpha tags are supposed to be as descriptive as possible, within the limits of 12 alpha/numeric characters, describing the use of the TG or frequency. CLEMARSxx tells me nothing. I have been at this for quite a while and without looking this up, I am going to guess it means "CA Law Enforcement Mutual Aid Radio System" or something like that. It probably reflects what appears in an actual radio when that frequency is selected, a practice that is discouraged by the handbook.

The description field, as you point out, is wrong. We hardly thought that we had to define the word "Description"; however, under any circumstances "Northern CA Use Only" is incorrect as a description, especially if it appears more than once.

b52hbuff, let me also be clear about something you should be aware of; the DB Admins have a separate and private forum where a lot of this stuff you are bringing up has been discussed in the past, indeed the handbook we now have started out as a collection of that knowledge base scattered over the years since the TrunkedRadioNet days. The addition of conventional frequencies and the added work has only been since Radio Reference came into being on February 27, 2004. In the six plus years that RR has been in existence, a lot has changed and it has grown both in scope and purpose. Since the introduction of programming software that actually addresses the DB directly, changes in policy have to be carefully thought out; however, individual data corrections can be made and should be pointed out. Your example above is a perfect example of something that is wrong on several levels and should be pointed out in a submission.

In reference to the HP-1, it is a great radio (I have one) but it has problems, one of which is it's design to ignore "Categories" and another may very well be the use of the description field instead of the alpha-tag. The former is a real problem, but it is a design problem on Uniden's part. The latter I am less sure of, proper descriptions are much better than the alpha tag for describing what someone is listening too, but up until now, no radio used them, so there are going to be errors in the DB that need to be fixed that no one pointed out before.

 

[lep]

Where I live the "description" is just fine and, for example in my Fire departments" it is the alpha tag that makes no sense to me. So, in monitoring with my other scanners I have my software display the "description" not the alpha tag. I was pleasantly surprised therefore to find that HP-1 automatically displays what I had to customize in my othere scanners. So, at least in my town it is the alpha tags that are useless but I don't care because I don't use them and the professionals don't use them either so it is no problem and therefore no reason to sumit changes to rr.

 

[loumaag]

Where I live the "description" is just fine and, for example in my Fire departments" it is the alpha tag that makes no sense to me...

Well, that really needs to be fixed if the alpha tag is actually no good. Give me a link to the county page, I am curious.

 

[b52hbuff]

Please take a look at this paragraph from the newest DB Admin Handbook, section 3.6:That said, the use of the Alpha Tag is well documented in the handbook, the description field is self-explanatory. I will admit there are entries, such as your example of CLEMARS that are improper. Indeed the entire entry, as you presented it, violates several guidelines.

Alpha tags are supposed to be as descriptive as possible, within the limits of 12 alpha/numeric characters, describing the use of the TG or frequency. CLEMARSxx tells me nothing. I have been at this for quite a while and without looking this up, I am going to guess it means "CA Law Enforcement Mutual Aid Radio System" or something like that. It probably reflects what appears in an actual radio when that frequency is selected, a practice that is discouraged by the handbook.

The description field, as you point out, is wrong. We hardly thought that we had to define the word "Description"; however, under any circumstances "Northern CA Use Only" is incorrect as a description, especially if it appears more than once.

As you will understand, I learn through examples...

So in this case I disagree with you until you show me a better example of how you'd suggest tagging the frequency. You are correct about the usage of the acronym, it is a mutual aid frequency. So let me tell you what I'd do and why, you correct me and we'll learn.

I'm perfectly happy with the alphatag of 'CLEMARS 21', because there's not much you can do with 12 characters. It is the name of the channel, and if someone on the air says, "Switching to CLEMARS 21", you have enough information to make the channel change.

So in my mind, I can't think of how to better use 12 characters without losing the ability to label the frequency what it is. As for the description, well that is a softball, it's blank. So I'd label it and describe it. The challenge here is that even though the HP-1 has a large field width, it isn't infinite. Spelling out the CLEMARS would probably result in the last part, with the number, getting cutoff. The number is one of the only ways to disambiguate the different channels.

I don't think it's unreasonable for users to know about some acronyms, and CLEMARS is one. Ok, so here's what I'd pick: "CLEMARS 21 (CA Law Enforcement Mutual Aid)"

Comments?

 

[DaveNF2G]

Alpha tags are supposed to be as descriptive as possible, within the limits of 12 alpha/numeric characters, describing the use of the TG or frequency. CLEMARSxx tells me nothing.

But what does it tell the listener in California?

however, under any circumstances "Northern CA Use Only" is incorrect as a description, especially if it appears more than once.

Why? What if there are several channels that are designated for Northern CA, and several more that are designated for Southern CA?

the DB Admins have a separate and private forum where a lot of this stuff you are bringing up has been discussed in the past,

I was just about to suggest such a forum if one did not exist.

 

[loumaag]

Well, I went looking to find what we are talking about specifically, with that in mind, here we go.

As you will understand, I learn through examples...

So in this case I disagree with you until you show me a better example of how you'd suggest tagging the frequency. You are correct about the usage of the acronym, it is a mutual aid frequency. So let me tell you what I'd do and why, you correct me and we'll learn.

I'm perfectly happy with the alphatag of 'CLEMARS 21', because there's not much you can do with 12 characters. It is the name of the channel, and if someone on the air says, "Switching to CLEMARS 21", you have enough information to make the channel change.

So in my mind, I can't think of how to better use 12 characters without losing the ability to label the frequency what it is. As for the description, well that is a softball, it's blank. So I'd label it and describe it. The challenge here is that even though the HP-1 has a large field width, it isn't infinite. Spelling out the CLEMARS would probably result in the last part, with the number, getting cutoff. The number is one of the only ways to disambiguate the different channels.

I don't think it's unreasonable for users to know about some acronyms, and CLEMARS is one. Ok, so here's what I'd pick: "CLEMARS 21 (CA Law Enforcement Mutual Aid)"

Comments?

Okay, from the HP-1 standpoint, you are repeating information. The SubCategory already says "California Law Enforcement Mutual Aid Radio System (CLEMARS)" so that will appear every time one of the frequencies comes active (Line 2, Department.) So the description probably should only have something like "Mutual Aid Channel 21". On the two channels that are for Northern CA only, just add that comment. As for the Alpha Tag, and assuming "nn" is the channel number, you could put "CaLEMAidChnn" or "CaLawMA Chnn" or "CLE MA Chnn", I could go on. Did you notice the one thing I left out of all my examples? The useless "RS".

But what does it tell the listener in California?

More to the point, what does it tell the tourist from Dubuque, just passing through?
Folks local will know what it is no matter how arcane the tag; folks not from the area, won't have a clue.

Why? What if there are several channels that are designated for Northern CA, and several more that are designated for Southern CA?

See my comment above and then look at the present state of affairs:
CLEMARS Subcategory

 

[DaveNF2G]

Here's my problem with this whole debate. It seems to be an effort to impose a nationwide standard for listing information on systems that are not standardized in the first place. As the OP pointed out earlier, the channel designator as it will be heard over the air is the most useful alpha tag, regardless of how "informative" it might appear to be in the database. I don't see the sense in overriding the "official" names of channels in favor of special names to satisfy some (non-local) DB Admin's aesthetic sense.

 

[loumaag]

Here's my problem with this whole debate. It seems to be an effort to impose a nationwide standard for listing information on systems that are not standardized in the first place. As the OP pointed out earlier, the channel designator as it will be heard over the air is the most useful alpha tag, regardless of how "informative" it might appear to be in the database. I don't see the sense in overriding the "official" names of channels in favor of special names to satisfy some (non-local) DB Admin's aesthetic sense.

David, I am guessing (since you didn't reference anything) that you are referring to the site policy in reference to Alpha-Tags. In that regard, there is no such thing as an "official" name of a channel as far as we are concerned. Specifically, to the point, at RR we don't care what the agency calls a channel unless that name actually describes the channel uniquely and is generally understandable by anyone. What we want is a descriptive tag of the channel so that anyone (including someone who actually uses the channel) can recognize it and its use.

A channel called "Dispatch 2" means absolutely nothing to someone who is scanning several agencies over a wide area, but to someone who is restricted to using 4 or 5 channels total (the actual case for most real users of systems) it makes perfect sense. A more to the point example would be Houston Police Department. Each regular radio can dial up 12 dispatch channels (plus some others) but the channels are numbered, um A1-A12. Not real helpful, even the people using the system don't refer to them by number, but rather what the purpose of the channel (Westside, Northwest, Kingwood, etc.) so using the tags should reflect the actual use not what they are.

 

[Ensnared]

In Texas, I once programmed several counties in series without making changes to the Alpha tag. When I reviewed them, I was totally lost. So, I have learned to do a county and then make my own adjustments to the Alpha field. However, I don't know if the HP allows or disallows such modification. If one is left to the mercy of RR, this might prove difficult. I have monitored Houston PD for many years. In fact, I can recite the frequencies by memory. But, I've made adjustments to my liking for HPD as well. But, I've never used "descriptions" in my GRE PSR 500. I might try.

 

[b52hbuff]

I think we need to take a step back and take a look at the big picture of where we are, where we want to be. Who are the consumers of the information and what is their responsibility?

Why do we have a 12 character alpha tag? And how does a user get to a 12 character alpha tag?

My answer to these questions is that this came about because of the GRE and the StarrSoft programs. If the database was to allow sharing of information of information only by humans, there wouldn't be a big need for a 12 character tag. Humans would transcribe the data from the web page to their radios and pick meaningful tags for them.

When the Starsoft programs came about, it allowed users to import data programmatically. It increased the convenience of the access to data, but it also reduced the responsibility of folks to put some minimal amount of effort into understanding what they were listening to. We could also argue that the abbreviations in the DB Admin Guide are not going to be clear to everyone who is a consumer of the database. In fact, what is the percentage of folks who consume db data that never even bother to read the guide?

The answer is that we have a 'Description' field that allows further explanation of the frequency/channel. I'm still not sure if the Description is a noun or an adjective. My preference is that it is a more descriptive noun. If further explanation is required, maybe we need a notes field? Or there is a comment block before the group of frequencies that allows for more narrative about the frequencies. But I digress.


Fast forward from the Starsoft days and we have scanners with 16 character tags. And just recently we have the HP-1 that doesn't even display a tag, but displays the Description. I hope, but don't know, that Uniden and RR.com spoke before Uniden designed the HP-1. If Uniden decided to skip the Alpha Tag and only display the Description, then they must have assumed that the Description was a noun and not an adjective.

Because "Northern CA Use Only" as a sole alpha tag is useles. But "CLEMARS 20, CA Law Enf Mutual Aid (NORCAL Only)", seems to fit the bill as a noun and an adjective. It also allows you to identify the channel in a way that it is discussed on the radio.

So to wrap this up. I think folks who are going to rely on the 12 character tag to completely identify what they are listening to are not going to be served in all instances. It is their responsibility to go read information in other fields of the database. If they have access to programmatic access into the database, then they have access to the PDF report. They can print it and keep it around for reference.

The Description field needs to be a richly described noun. It needs to Describe the frequency/channel. It should have the official name/tag in the field. It can't be just a adjective because telling something about the frequency/channel, like the CLEMARS example above is useless to HP-1 users.

If we need more description that is available in the description field, then we need to consider another Notes field, or we use the text blocks above the frequency block.

 

[loumaag]

...
So to wrap this up. I think folks who are going to rely on the 12 character tag to completely identify what they are listening to are not going to be served in all instances. It is their responsibility to go read information in other fields of the database. If they have access to programmatic access into the database, then they have access to the PDF report. They can print it and keep it around for reference.

The Description field needs to be a richly described noun. It needs to Describe the frequency/channel. It should have the official name/tag in the field. It can't be just a adjective because telling something about the frequency/channel, like the CLEMARS example above is useless to HP-1 users.

If we need more description that is available in the description field, then we need to consider another Notes field, or we use the text blocks above the frequency block.

Wrap up? Funny.

In any case, there are still scanners in use on a daily basis that have only the 12 character alpha tag to display. For that matter there are scanners that have no alpha tag display, but we can skip them for the purposes of this conversation. As such, the 12 character Alpha Tag needs to say Who and What in each and every instance.

The description field, is used to describe the use of the channel and further defines what the Alpha Tag does in those 12 characters. You should not repeat the agency information in the description field because it is already part of the 12 alpha tag as well as the higher level (subcategory, category, agency, etc. or TG Group, TRS name). Note that in the HP-1 that you seem to be so concerned with the System and Agency appear in the window as well as the description field. So in your example (as I pointed out earlier) repeating CLEMARS (in any form) in the description field is redundant and not desired.

 

[exkalibur]

The alpha-tag should always reflect what the channel is ACTUALLY called. IE, what it says on the display of the user's radio. Or, if you hear it refereed on the radio to as. Example, up here a fire talkgroup is called "south tac 1", on the real radios, it is S-TAC-1.

EMS South/West is labeled as "A1-SW", as another example. Who cares if someone doesn't know what they mean if they're not from the area. That isn't the point.

 

[hfxChris]

The alpha-tag should always reflect what the channel is ACTUALLY called. IE, what it says on the display of the user's radio. Or, if you hear it refereed on the radio to as. Example, up here a fire talkgroup is called "south tac 1", on the real radios, it is S-TAC-1.

EMS South/West is labeled as "A1-SW", as another example. Who cares if someone doesn't know what they mean if they're not from the area. That isn't the point.

Uh, not quite. Alpha tags can include the offical channel name (as it would appear on a users' radio) if that name makes sense. If the official channel name is just "channel 2" - then no, that would not be an appropriate alpha tag.
As for your second paragraph, again not quite. The alpha tag must be crafted in a way that the channel's usage and ownership is understandable, even to people from outside of the area. You would appreciate it if you were travelling in a different area.

 

[loumaag]

Chris covered this pretty well, but I just feel like it needs to be hammered home.

The alpha-tag should always reflect what the channel is ACTUALLY called. IE, what it says on the display of the user's radio. Or, if you hear it refereed on the radio to as. Example, up here a fire talkgroup is called "south tac 1", on the real radios, it is S-TAC-1.

Absolutely wrong! It should never, ever, be what is on an actual radio unless that just happens to fulfill our (note: our, RR, us, we, this site) requirements for an alpha-tag. Just for an example, two agencies on the same TRS may (and often do) have the same channel labeled differently; which one would you choose? All of our alpha-tags are supposed to reflect Who & What so that (in theory) there shouldn't be two alpha-tags on this site that are the same but don't point to the same channel.

EMS South/West is labeled as "A1-SW", as another example. Who cares if someone doesn't know what they mean if they're not from the area. That isn't the point.

Wrong again! That is exactly the point. We care, the purpose of the site is to support the monitoring community at large, not individual groups of monitoring elitists. Hey, if you want your scanner to say whatever the local radios say on alpha tags, do what has always been done, program your scanner to say what you want it to say. Just don't try to foist your opinion as policy here. After all, your scanner is your scanner and it can say whatever you want...err, don't buy a HomePatrol though.

 

[b52hbuff]

I'm glad I made Lou laugh. Life can be so humorless at time.

Anyway, thanks for helping me to see some of the light. I admit my issue is that I was too focused on the alpha tag and the description. For the record, I don't care about the Alpha Tag (and this isn't sour grapes. ). As you all know, I have an HP-1, so for now, it doesn't use the Alpha Tag. And every other radio I'm going to buy is going to have > 12 character limit. So if/when I end up downloading the database programmatically, I'll have the opportunity to update the tag (if required) to indicate something that is clear to me.

What I missed was the subcategory/department/channel hierarchy that did display CLEAMARS. And I totally agree that duplication across these fields isn't desirable. I should have read your post closer.

However, one issue that concerns me is when the disambiguation happens at the end of the line. For sufficiently long lines the HP-1 truncates the field with a '...'. I think it would be useful to have some sort of 'web tool' that incorporated the HP-1 line wrap to ensure the 'disambiguating text' hasn't been truncated.

The algorithm doesn't appear to be a consistent field length since the field will line break at a space between the first and second line of this display. If you have an 'early' line break on the first line, then the ultimate field length displayed will be shorter than if every possible character was displayed on the two lines.

 

[exkalibur]

loumaag; I suppose if your intention is to make things even more confusing for the new-comer to our hobby, your convention would be spot on.

However, if for example, my local Fire Department uses Channel 1 for dispatch and Channel 2 for fire-ground ops...say their radios say "FD 1" and "FD 2". Does it make sense to label them as that on RR? Heck yes. Label the alpha tag as "FD 1" and description as "Fire Dispatch".

The alpha-tag should ALWAYS always be the name that the channel is referred to as on the air. Calling a channel "CITY ZONE" is useless as all getout if that channel is called "Channel 1" on the air.

Take for example, the City of Toronto and it's database. The labels on there are VERY wrong, and very misleading. I've submitted the correct info (IE, the exact alpha-tag on the system radios, and the proper description), but they've never been updated. So for example, instead of a channel being labeled as "MSS 850" (as is currently in RR), having it shown as "A8-ISS" for alpha-tag and "East Drugs" as a description is much more descriptive.

 

[exkalibur]

don't buy a HomePatrol though.

I don't plan on it, don't worry!

I do see your point however. But, my point is that if someone says "switch to ALRT-1", the scanner user should be able to easily find that channel, rather than them giving a description. They'd likely not say "East City Alerts" or "TEMS-ALERT-CITY" or what have you.

 

[loumaag]

exkalibur:
To use your examples as examples, if you will:

• I have no problem with part of the alpha tag being "FD 1" in your first example, but where??? How about this - "Tor FD1 Disp". Note it does exactly what it is supposed to do and meets our (RR) requirements for an alpha-tag by saying Who and What the channel is and also matches what you hear on the air. How is that wrong?
• In your "ARLT 1" example, one would imagine that there is more than one, else why would there be a number? So taking that the alpha-tag will also be more descriptive and since I don't actually know what agency would use that, I can't define one for you, but can you not use the above example and come up with something better than "ALRT 1" as a tag?
• Just for general knowledge, the use of all caps in the alpha-tag is discouraged.

 

[Duster]

As for the Alpha Tag, and assuming "nn" is the channel number, you could put "CaLEMAidChnn" or "CaLawMA Chnn" or "CLE MA Chnn", I could go on. Did you notice the one thing I left out of all my examples? The useless "RS".

More to the point, what does it tell the tourist from Dubuque, just passing through?
Folks local will know what it is no matter how arcane the tag; folks not from the area, won't have a clue.

See my comment above and then look at the present state of affairs:
CLEMARS Subcategory

Lou, here's the problem with that: I live here, work here, and have worked in Law Enforcement/Fire/EMS in this state for 25 years. I wouldn't recognize that tag...at all. Anyone who has ever listened to a radio in this state for more than a few weeks knows CLEMARS. That is what it is called by EVERYONE who uses it. Agencies do not rename the mutual aid channels for their own use. In this specific instance, the alpha-tag CLEMARS is the most descriptive tag for the spaces available. I am not saying that is true across the board, but when it comes to statewide mutual aid channels, they should be alpha-tagged what they are called, because when 86-Adam-24 tells his beat partner to "go to NLEEP", you don't have to wonder what that channel is called. In my experience in CA, NV, KS, as well as traveling I-70 and I-80 between CA and KS, most states keep a standard naming convention for their mutual aid channels within that state. IMHO, we should not change that. Joe Citizen driving through California is not going to be THAT concerned if the channel says CLEMARS...they will be concerned if they cannot find the channel everyone just switched to.

I'm not going to weigh in on the Description field debate, because that is a decision that needs to be made much higher in the food chain. I agree that the Description field needs to be standardized, but to what, I don't have an opinion yet. I kind of like the idea of asking UPMan to set the HP-1 up to use the Alpha Tags, likely in conjunction with the Descriptions.

Just my .02...

Incidentally, CalEMA is the California Emergency Management Agency (formerly state OES). Using the naming convention you suggest, it would be very easy to confuse CLEMARS with a CalEMA radio frequency, which it technically is not, even though CalEMA is involved with frequency management.