Review of the FDM-S2 SDR receiver.

Status
Not open for further replies.

jdobbs2001

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
221
It's better because its almost half the price of the perseus. why pay 1000 dollars for it when for less money you get the FDM-S2. With the FDM-S2 I can run two complete 384K channel independent radios (ie listen to 8mhz and 13mhz spans, 4 vfos on each span for a total of 8)

Not only that but it will do FM radio which on the Perseus requires a 400 dollar converter (the FM+)

There are reports that compared to the FDM-S2 the Perseus is less sensitive on the higher HF/VHF frequencies. There is lots of interesting stuff in the 29-50 Mhz to listen to due to sporadic E, etc..

Most people do not have unlimited budgets and it makes no sense to spend 1000 on the Perseus compared to the 580 for the FDM-S2.

I do not see the value proposition of the Perseus, I am surprised that Microtelecom has not introduced something new yet.

FPGA/ADC's technology has moved forward quite a bit since they first introduced their product.
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Token, how would compare the FDM-S2 to the SDR-IQ, since you own both?

Thanks

No comparison, the FDM-S2 is better in almost every technical aspect, far greater DDC bandwidth, better sensitivity, better image rejection, wider tuned bandwidth, the native software is far more advanced than the SpectraVue that the SDR-IQ ships with, and the price in the US is so close between the two.

If I was choosing between the 2 today it would be a no brainer, but I have had my SDR-IQ’s for a number of years, and when I got them they were a no brainer also. However, as you already have the SDR-IQ, you have to ask yourself, what are you missing in its operation? Are you running into limitations today? And if so, what are they?

That is not saying that the SDR-IQ is a bad radio. I still use both of mine daily. There are times I like the SDR-IQ for its softwares relative simplicity. One of my –IQ’s does daily recordings, the other is often online as a remote SDR for other people to use.

T!
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Keep in mind I am not defending the Perseus, I am just trying to find what your value of “better” was. Without a doubt I think the FDM-S2 is the better value of the two, but not necessarily the “better” of the two in every way or for every application. When I chose to replace my failing Perseus I chose an FDM-S2, so obviously I thought it a better value for what I wanted it to do. The areas that I consider the FDM-S2 to not be better than the Perseus were outweighed by the sum of the whole.

If for no other reason this discussion will lay out the issues for other potential buyers, and that is the purpose of a review or review thread, I think. However it is also important, to me anyway, to separate opinion and preference from fact, and to indicate why the opinion or preference exist.

It's better because its almost half the price of the perseus. why pay 1000 dollars for it when for less money you get the FDM-S2. With the FDM-S2 I can run two complete 384K channel independent radios (ie listen to 8mhz and 13mhz spans, 4 vfos on each span for a total of 8)

The dual window is a native software capability, not the radio itself. And with the native software the Perseus has capabilities the FDM-S2 does not, such as remote operation. I did not ask about software features, I asked why the radio, the FDM-S2, was better and what first hand comparisons you made to decide that.

Yes, I realize the FDM-S2 can be used with SDR-Radio and get remote capability, but that is third party software. If a third party software developer writes the code the Perseus will do dual window operation also, although likely with reduced bandwidth by comparison to the S2. When the Perseus was first released, indeed when I bought mine, it would only do 400 kHz of bandwidth, software leveraged the hardware to bring it up to the 1600 kHz it has today.

The price delta and the wider DDC bandwidth are a given, they exist without doubt, and are heavy drivers all by themselves.

Not only that but it will do FM radio which on the Perseus requires a 400 dollar converter (the FM+)

That makes it “better” if you are interested in FM radio, which as an HF listener I am not. I would rather have a more robust, out of band signal resistant, front end, which the Perseus does appear to have. I like the lower apparent (I have no direct ability to measure this, but have looked at the available information) phase noise of the LO in the Perseus.

I have never spent the 400 dollars for the Perseus FM converter, and have no interest in doing so, even if it were only 10 dollars.

There are reports that compared to the FDM-S2 the Perseus is less sensitive on the higher HF/VHF frequencies. There is lots of interesting stuff in the 29-50 Mhz to listen to due to sporadic E, etc..

Leaving other peoples reports out of it, I have actually measured both receivers sensitivity on the bench. The FDM-S2 is indeed more sensitive, across the bands, not just at the upper end (in use the upper end is where it shows up for most people). With the two examples (one Perseus and one S2) I measured, the FDM-S2 tested out pretty much at the advertised numbers (measured 0.2 microV, CW, 500 Hz BW, 10 dB S+N/N), with the Perseus very slightly better than the advertised numbers (measured 0.5 microV, CW, 500 Hz BW, 10 dB S+N/N). Both measurements checked at 15 MHZ and spot checked across the HF band to see variations. However, I also realize exactly what that delta means.

If you plug in your antenna on 40 MHz (for example) and the noise floor goes up with no signal present, then you probably could not use the added sensitivity.

In general I would not benefit from the increased sensitivity, so I do not see this as a “better”. That is opinion.

I do not see the value proposition of the Perseus, I am surprised that Microtelecom has not introduced something new yet.

FPGA/ADC's technology has moved forward quite a bit since they first introduced their product.

Ahhh, value is a different thing. Yes, the FDM-S2 does appear to be a better value, anyone who would argue that has probably never used either one. That does not, in my mind, make it a “better” radio. The RTL Dongles are a far better “value” than the WinRadio G39DDC, but they are not better in any other way.

I also am surprised that Microtelecom has not had a new product in a while, however that does not meant the existing product is not very good. The issue I have right now with the Perseus is the price point. It is no longer competitive at its performance level. The same could be said for the SDR-IQ, and yet they still sell, often to very informed users. The NetSDR is not more sensitive than the FDM-S2, it does not have a wider DDC bandwidth, it tops out at only 40 MHz in its native configuration, it sells for several times the price of the S2, and yet it is a far better device for certain types of applications.

I guess what it comes down to is that in your opinion the FDM-S2 is the better radio, not in bold fact it is better in every way or for every need.

And I have to say, I agree with the opinion, particularly for the casual listener. In my opinion the FDM-S2 is the better choice, for almost any listeneer, unless they have a need that the Perseus fills better, such as it native interaction with analysis software like Hoka Code 300.

T!
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Token, thanks for the excellent summary. Because I came within a keystroke of buying a Perseus, and because you have much experience with Perseus, can I ask you (and other Perseus users) a question? When I was trying to decide which SDR to start with, I downloaded the Perseus software and spent a few hours hooking into remotes around the world. I thought the GUI was excellent, except for two things: 1) It doesn't seem to go full screen, only about 1/4 my screen. And 2) it seems you scroll "down" to go "up" in frequency. Those two little things were enough to get me to pause and consider the Elad and Winradio.

All of this SDR software is probably quirky. There are a couple of things I might change with the FDM-S2 software, for example, I might put the radio control features across the bottom, instead of the right side. Then there would be room for buttons to change modes instead of pulldown menus. On the other hand, in my Very limited SDR experience, I love the FDM-S2 tuning scheme, double click = center frequency.

I'm just curious if you consider those two Perseus "quirks" to be limitations.

Thanks,

Bob


Bob,

The Perseus GUI is fixed size. That has been a sticking point with some users for quite a while, others have no issue with it. I would like to see it resizable, but think it works quite well considering that limitation.

Yeah, the scroll is backwords from the scroll on the FDM-SW2, but that never really bothered me. In fact until you just mentioned it I had forgotten all about it, I just naturally scroll in the right direction for that software.

One thing that annoys the heck out of me is the waterfall on the SW2 (and the WinRadio GUI, by the way). Waterfalls are supposed to fall DOWN. That is the way I learned it 35+ years ago when I first was introduced to them, and that is the way I like them to work, newest at the top, oldest at the bottom.

Not sure what you mean by the tuning scheme of the FDM-SW2 with regards to tuning. When I single click it shifts the tuned frequency, but leaves the DDC window tuned were it was, double clicking does nothing. This is as it should be. Clicking a signal should not cause the DDC window to change, if it did you would loose history in the waterfall. Clicking does not change the center frequency of the DDC window. And that is the same way the Perseus does it and that WinRadio GUI. The SpectraVue software changes CF on click if you are in the Center Frequency mode, but not in the Demodulate Frequency mode.

T!
 

ShiftyPotts

Member
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
47
Bob,

One thing that annoys the heck out of me is the waterfall on the SW2 (and the WinRadio GUI, by the way). Waterfalls are supposed to fall DOWN. That is the way I learned it 35+ years ago when I first was introduced to them, and that is the way I like them to work, newest at the top, oldest at the bottom.

T!

I see your point with the waterfall. I started with the "backward" waterfall, so it feels perfectly natural to me. This is where I should insert a stupid smiley face if I knew how.

Re: tuning scheme. With S2 now, if you double click, the first click tunes and the second click is like hitting the CF button. Yes, it disrupts the history, but I wouldn't say you lose it, it's still there, just shifted. Anyway, you can really fly across the spectrum (if you want to). This may be recent with S2, it may have even changed since I bought mine a couple weeks ago.

There's a lot of good SDR info in this thread.

Bob
 

E-Man

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
841
Location
Global
I would be interested in Waterfall settings if folks would like to share. Thanks
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Re: tuning scheme. With S2 now, if you double click, the first click tunes and the second click is like hitting the CF button. Yes, it disrupts the history, but I wouldn't say you lose it, it's still there, just shifted. Anyway, you can really fly across the spectrum (if you want to). This may be recent with S2, it may have even changed since I bought mine a couple weeks ago.

I just updated to V 1.25 and see what you mean, I was using 1.12 before and the double click to change C/F was not there.

I don’t think I will use that feature, it does not really fit how I use an SDR. When I have the DDC width narrow, say 153 kHz, 307 kHz, or dual 307 kHz, I tend to use “Lock to CF” and a tuning input, like the Griffin PowerMate or XKeys Jog Shuttle Pro. When I have wider DDC’s selected I typically do not want the CF to change at all unless I type the freq in (again, typed in on the Jog Shuttle Pro keypad). So basically I mouse oor key to look at things inside the DDC window and keypad to move the DDC window. Of course it is easy to say “don’t double click, and it is like it is not even there”, but I have already accidentally double clicked a couple of times and shifted the waterfall, losing the frequency registration of signals I have not yet checked.

I would rather the software have features that do not fit my operating habits (like this one), than not have features I want. On a full featured software some users will like some things, other will like other things, the more features software has, the more likely there will be some you don’t need…and others that you do need.

T!
 

jdobbs2001

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
221
Bob,

The Perseus GUI is fixed size. That has been a sticking point with some users for quite a while, others have no issue with it. I would like to see it resizable, but think it works quite well considering that limitation.

Yeah, the scroll is backwords from the scroll on the FDM-SW2, but that never really bothered me. In fact until you just mentioned it I had forgotten all about it, I just naturally scroll in the right direction for that software.

One thing that annoys the heck out of me is the waterfall on the SW2 (and the WinRadio GUI, by the way). Waterfalls are supposed to fall DOWN. That is the way I learned it 35+ years ago when I first was introduced to them, and that is the way I like them to work, newest at the top, oldest at the bottom.

Not sure what you mean by the tuning scheme of the FDM-SW2 with regards to tuning. When I single click it shifts the tuned frequency, but leaves the DDC window tuned were it was, double clicking does nothing. This is as it should be. Clicking a signal should not cause the DDC window to change, if it did you would loose history in the waterfall. Clicking does not change the center frequency of the DDC window. And that is the same way the Perseus does it and that WinRadio GUI. The SpectraVue software changes CF on click if you are in the Center Frequency mode, but not in the Demodulate Frequency mode.

T!

Curious what were you operating back then that had waterfall?

The most advanced thing I got to see back in the days was the WJ RASP system but it had no waterfall. they were in the submarines.
 

jdobbs2001

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
221
Keep in mind I am not defending the Perseus, I am just trying to find what your value of “better” was. Without a doubt I think the FDM-S2 is the better value of the two, but not necessarily the “better” of the two in every way or for every application. When I chose to replace my failing Perseus I chose an FDM-S2, so obviously I thought it a better value for what I wanted it to do. The areas that I consider the FDM-S2 to not be better than the Perseus were outweighed by the sum of the whole.

If for no other reason this discussion will lay out the issues for other potential buyers, and that is the purpose of a review or review thread, I think. However it is also important, to me anyway, to separate opinion and preference from fact, and to indicate why the opinion or preference exist.



The dual window is a native software capability, not the radio itself. And with the native software the Perseus has capabilities the FDM-S2 does not, such as remote operation. I did not ask about software features, I asked why the radio, the FDM-S2, was better and what first hand comparisons you made to decide that.

Yes, I realize the FDM-S2 can be used with SDR-Radio and get remote capability, but that is third party software. If a third party software developer writes the code the Perseus will do dual window operation also, although likely with reduced bandwidth by comparison to the S2. When the Perseus was first released, indeed when I bought mine, it would only do 400 kHz of bandwidth, software leveraged the hardware to bring it up to the 1600 kHz it has today.

The price delta and the wider DDC bandwidth are a given, they exist without doubt, and are heavy drivers all by themselves.



That makes it “better” if you are interested in FM radio, which as an HF listener I am not. I would rather have a more robust, out of band signal resistant, front end, which the Perseus does appear to have. I like the lower apparent (I have no direct ability to measure this, but have looked at the available information) phase noise of the LO in the Perseus.

I have never spent the 400 dollars for the Perseus FM converter, and have no interest in doing so, even if it were only 10 dollars.



Leaving other peoples reports out of it, I have actually measured both receivers sensitivity on the bench. The FDM-S2 is indeed more sensitive, across the bands, not just at the upper end (in use the upper end is where it shows up for most people). With the two examples (one Perseus and one S2) I measured, the FDM-S2 tested out pretty much at the advertised numbers (measured 0.2 microV, CW, 500 Hz BW, 10 dB S+N/N), with the Perseus very slightly better than the advertised numbers (measured 0.5 microV, CW, 500 Hz BW, 10 dB S+N/N). Both measurements checked at 15 MHZ and spot checked across the HF band to see variations. However, I also realize exactly what that delta means.

If you plug in your antenna on 40 MHz (for example) and the noise floor goes up with no signal present, then you probably could not use the added sensitivity.

In general I would not benefit from the increased sensitivity, so I do not see this as a “better”. That is opinion.



Ahhh, value is a different thing. Yes, the FDM-S2 does appear to be a better value, anyone who would argue that has probably never used either one. That does not, in my mind, make it a “better” radio. The RTL Dongles are a far better “value” than the WinRadio G39DDC, but they are not better in any other way.

I also am surprised that Microtelecom has not had a new product in a while, however that does not meant the existing product is not very good. The issue I have right now with the Perseus is the price point. It is no longer competitive at its performance level. The same could be said for the SDR-IQ, and yet they still sell, often to very informed users. The NetSDR is not more sensitive than the FDM-S2, it does not have a wider DDC bandwidth, it tops out at only 40 MHz in its native configuration, it sells for several times the price of the S2, and yet it is a far better device for certain types of applications.

I guess what it comes down to is that in your opinion the FDM-S2 is the better radio, not in bold fact it is better in every way or for every need.

And I have to say, I agree with the opinion, particularly for the casual listener. In my opinion the FDM-S2 is the better choice, for almost any listeneer, unless they have a need that the Perseus fills better, such as it native interaction with analysis software like Hoka Code 300.

T!


I think the Perseus is the cheapest way to get into the Hoka platform. But most people do not bother with the digital modes or if they have a requirement they know what they need.

but the FDM-S2 offers a lot of bang for the buck and quite good receiver performance. 15 years ago such a thing for the price would have been something unthinkable.
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Curious what were you operating back then that had waterfall?

The most advanced thing I got to see back in the days was the WJ RASP system but it had no waterfall. they were in the submarines.

I think the first waterfall I saw was on the NEWTS at Corry Station, Pensacola, FL in the late 70’s. After that I used a variety of ESM/ELINT/SIGINT systems over the years that included waterfalls, although sonar systems adopted them, regularly, probably earlier than any other application.

T!
 

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
25,577
Location
Bowie, Md.
Just by way of explanation, when a 'Hoka Platform' for the Perseus is mentioned, this is what is likely being discussed

http://www.hoka.net/products/code3-32p.html

I don't want to wander too far OT here, but before you jump - well for that price, Hoka should have cleaned out some of those modes that haven't been noted in years (ROU-FEC, HNG-FEC for example) -but those analysis tools look pretty nice....Mike
 

Token

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,414
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
Just by way of explanation, when a 'Hoka Platform' for the Perseus is mentioned, this is what is likely being discussed

http://www.hoka.net/products/code3-32p.html

I don't want to wander too far OT here, but before you jump - well for that price, Hoka should have cleaned out some of those modes that haven't been noted in years (ROU-FEC, HNG-FEC for example) -but those analysis tools look pretty nice....Mike

That is indeed more probable in the hobby market, but when I mentioned it I was thinking of the more expensive Hoka Code 300-32P. In either case, the investment in software ($1295 for 3-32P and $6050 for 300-32P) might warrant spending the extra on the Perseus vs an unintegrated RX like the FDM-S2, even if it is not quite up to current leading technologies in the field. Along the same lines, Krypto500 is integrated with the RFSpace devices, and would also be an example of why someone might select the less current (in regards to SDR technology) SDR-IQ.

For both of those kinds of applications the wide DDC bandwidth, fancy dual tune windows, etc, is not really much of a player. You look at one signal at a time, you analyze it in detail, you maybe decode the data, you capture an I/Q recording, etc. All things the Perseus and SDR-I/Q do perfectly well.

T!
 

jdobbs2001

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
221
That is indeed more probable in the hobby market, but when I mentioned it I was thinking of the more expensive Hoka Code 300-32P. In either case, the investment in software ($1295 for 3-32P and $6050 for 300-32P) might warrant spending the extra on the Perseus vs an unintegrated RX like the FDM-S2, even if it is not quite up to current leading technologies in the field. Along the same lines, Krypto500 is integrated with the RFSpace devices, and would also be an example of why someone might select the less current (in regards to SDR technology) SDR-IQ.

For both of those kinds of applications the wide DDC bandwidth, fancy dual tune windows, etc, is not really much of a player. You look at one signal at a time, you analyze it in detail, you maybe decode the data, you capture an I/Q recording, etc. All things the Perseus and SDR-I/Q do perfectly well.

T!

Well its like anything else out there. ie like the pentium IV desktop running XP and the custom vertical market software, the Qualified vetted desktop would cost 3 grand when you can get a Haswell desktop running windows 8.1 for 900 dollars but it wont run the 5 grand software package that requires that 3 grand P4 desktop with XP.

For 90% of the users the 900 dollar modern desktop is the better deal, but that 10% who needs the special software, knows what the need and will pay accordingly.

Same with the Perseus, the FDM-S2 is useless if it wont run that Hoka software so you will pony up the 1000 dollars for the Perseus to run that 1500 dollar software (or 6K one). And those who need that software know this, and so does the company that makes the Perseus. Which is why they probably have not lowered the price or come out with a new one. Its called "Milking the cow till shes dry" philosophy :)


I have seen this in the past in Government setups. the special "Vendor qualified" 10,000 dollar pentium desktop (running OS/2 Warp) to run that one application.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
288
Location
Buckeye, AZ
Just ordered one of these, should be here next week sometime. Hopefully I can figure out how to use it, lol. Now I need a new laptop because the one I have is an xp & it's a relic. Expensive weekend for me! Oh well, I'm single.... LOL
 

ShiftyPotts

Member
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
47
Just ordered one of these, should be here next week sometime. Hopefully I can figure out how to use it, lol. Now I need a new laptop because the one I have is an xp & it's a relic. Expensive weekend for me! Oh well, I'm single.... LOL

I hope you will be very happy with your new S2. I've been playing with mine non-stop for two weeks. My index finger is beginning to hurt from all the tuning. lol I'm a retired broadcaster so I've been having fun tuning distant AM stations. I assembled a Pixel Loop and propped it up in the middle of my living room, and it seems to be doing an amazing job. Hope to get it mounted on top of a building next door this weekend.

I decided to buy a new Dell XPS for my radio stuff and I like it a lot. Taking a while to get back into Windows but I'm getting the hang of it. One consideration with Elad vs. Laptop (and I'm not real clear on this) but I think the Elad takes two USB 2.0 ports on your computer, or one USB 3.0 port. I never bothered to read the instructions, but it comes with a USB Y adapter, which I never used, and it seems to be working fine, so I must be on USB 3.0. If there is a weak spot with the S2 it is the instructions. A lot of features are mentioned, but there are no details. I guess they figure we should all know this stuff. lol

Bob
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
288
Location
Buckeye, AZ
Thank you for this information. I was at a toss up on loop antennas between the Pixel & the Wellbrook. I went with the Wellbrook LA5030. I like it a lot. I live in a single story apartment and have it sitting on my patio wall attached to a small camera tripod I bought at Walmart for $15 I think it was. I'm sure I'll figure it all out and have lot's of fun with it.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
I thought the GUI was excellent, except for two things: 1) It doesn't seem to go full screen, only about 1/4 my screen. And 2) it seems you scroll "down" to go "up" in frequency. Those two little things were enough to get me to pause and consider the Elad and Winradio.

Personally, I don't mind the #1 limitation. I can use it and work with multiple windows on my 27" monitor. I use only 125khz b/w anyway so it works just great for me. Some people prefer a full-screen and others do not. I'm definitely in the latter category.

#2 is a limitation in your opinion. If you think about it, this is how it should be. When you turn the VFO knob to the right you go up in frequency. When you turn left, you go down in frequency. WiNRADiO does the reverse and it ticked me off. :p

Also, why would you buy a new one? All you had to do was join the Yahoo Perseus group and put a simple WTB post. You'll likely find one for sale. Just the other day, there was one that sold for $600. That's a steal for what you're getting.

Also, the remote network is almost priceless for those days you have terrible RFI and/or just want to listen in on the next war hot-spot. Frankly, the USA is pretty boring on shortwave. Listening to the EU or East Asia can be much more entertaining. :)

What I find interesting is that there hasn't been (1) SDR (as yet) that can *completely* kick the Perseus from its perch. It's nearly 7 years old and still going strong.
 

ShiftyPotts

Member
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
47
Also, the remote network is almost priceless for those days you have terrible RFI and/or just want to listen in on the next war hot-spot. Frankly, the USA is pretty boring on shortwave. Listening to the EU or East Asia can be much more entertaining. :)

Nick, you have a very good point! I also think it would be fun to get one and make it available as a remote. Once I finish my mini antenna farm, I might have to think about that.

It would also be nice if Microtelecom would announce the next generation of SDR's! :)

Bob
 

kilokat7

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Messages
296
Location
West Michigan
Token, thanks for the excellent summary. Because I came within a keystroke of buying a Perseus, and because you have much experience with Perseus, can I ask you (and other Perseus users) a question? When I was trying to decide which SDR to start with, I downloaded the Perseus software and spent a few hours hooking into remotes around the world. I thought the GUI was excellent, except for two things: 1) It doesn't seem to go full screen, only about 1/4 my screen. And 2) it seems you scroll "down" to go "up" in frequency. Those two little things were enough to get me to pause and consider the Elad and Winradio.

Regarding #2 above, if you're referring to the direction of the mouse wheel relative to the tuning direction, then this can easily be reversed in the Perseus software settings by clicking the blue Perseus symbol in the upper left corner of the window. Change the setting "Reverse Mouse Wheel" from 0 to 1, or vice-versa depending on your preference.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top