RF exposure

[alcahuete]

TBH, I don't think anybody cares about the new rules. Hams are just going to keep hamming just like they have done for years. They are going to keep using HTs, mobile stations, home stations, etc., in the manner they always have. Who is going to enforce it?

Is it a good awareness piece for RF safety? Absolutely! Are people going to redesign their stations if they don't meet the new requirements? Absolutely not.

 

[MUTNAV]

What I described exists and I’ve had my hands on one. Many years ago a crude version was used against a U.S. embassy and I believe employees were made sick from the high levels of RF pointed at the building needed to make it work. The version I saw was low power and would not harm anyone but could selectively “listen” into different areas or rooms from a distance.

yes... but when you tell someone that speech can be monitored from from a distance using a device like that, and accompany that with an explanation like you did (using big words for some people) you quickly turn into a tin foil hat person.... you aren't one, but mention this, or microwave hearing (which also exists), without a simple explanation to accompany it, and you get at the very least strange looks (and possibly referral charges for witchcraft).

Even with a simple explanation, I think Lauris' hot dog story is a great illustration of a certain amount of concern with different technologies.

On the other end of the spectrum, I read about some hunters in Russia (just after the cold war) coming across a nuclear battery used to power listening equipment long term. They thought it was great, it was like having a campfire without needing wood, cancer followed shortly afterwords, so I guess a certain amount of suspicion of technologies is warranted.

Thanks
Joel

 

[chrismol1]

Those passive listening device things have been around for quite some time, 1960's when it went public. I imagine they got much more powerful and technological as time progressed

The Thing
The Great Seal Bug, also known as The Thing, was a passive covert listening device, invented during WWII by Léon Theremin (Russian: Термен) in the Soviet Union (USSR) and planted in the residence of the US Ambassador in Moscow, hidden inside a wooden carving of the Great Seal of the United States. It is called a passive device as it does not have its own power source. Instead it is acivated from the outside by a strong electromagnetic signal. The operating principle is based on the resonant cavity microphone, also known as an endovibrator (Russian: ендовибратор).

 

[prcguy]

Those passive listening device things have been around for quite some time, 1960's when it went public. I imagine they got much more powerful and technological as time progressed

The Thing
The Great Seal Bug, also known as The Thing, was a passive covert listening device, invented during WWII by Léon Theremin (Russian: Термен) in the Soviet Union (USSR) and planted in the residence of the US Ambassador in Moscow, hidden inside a wooden carving of the Great Seal of the United States. It is called a passive device as it does not have its own power source. Instead it is acivated from the outside by a strong electromagnetic signal. The operating principle is based on the resonant cavity microphone, also known as an endovibrator (Russian: ендовибратор).

The device I played with had little in common with The Thing and I have seen an exact replica of that in person. After reading more about it I don’t think the RF fields required at the device for it to operate would be considered dangerous.

 

[iMONITOR]

Ha Ha Ha,, a 25 watt talky ? Not without an amplifier.

That's exactly what I thought! But some of the reviews have tested it and it appears to be putting out that wattage. It does have an internal cooling fan, and a powerful battery, but it's hard to believe! I have never even seen amateur radio HT's anywhere near that powerful.

 

[ab3a]

To a point they haven't been demonstrated...

Transcranial magnetic stimulation - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

Seems pretty convincing.

Thanks
Joel

Quoting the article you cited:
"...the biology of why TMS works isn't completely understood, the stimulation appears to affect how the brain is working. It seems to ease depression symptoms and improve mood."

The issue is that this is a pulsed magnetic field, not RF --and they don't fully understand why their approach works.

There have been many problems in many many papers regarding RF exposure. There has also been a lot of shoddy journalism. There have been medical papers where the lab animals were exposed to an RF field from an antenna. The problem? The researchers confused near and far field equations. The actual measured field was higher, such that the lab animals were getting cooked.

Others included studies of leukemia and power lines. The researchers ASSUMED the field from higher voltage power lines would be less. However, when they went back and actually measured the field, they correlation they thought was there disappeared.

There have also been researchers who examined cumulative exposures to RF-- as if it were ionizing radiation. It is Non-Ionizing radiation. There were also studies of the mortality of ham radio enthusiasts compared to other people of similar socio-economic class. The problem? Again, they didn't actually measure any of the fields, nor did they account for the more sedentary lifestyle, nor did they account for the issue of exposure to all sorts of other things, not the least of which was lead solder.

I could go on. These researchers aren't stupid. However, they're subject to a publish or perish environment. So their approaches are limited to the meager time and resources they have to do the study.

 

[prcguy]

Quoting the article you cited:
"...the biology of why TMS works isn't completely understood, the stimulation appears to affect how the brain is working. It seems to ease depression symptoms and improve mood."

The issue is that this is a pulsed magnetic field, not RF --and they don't fully understand why their approach works.

There have been many problems in many many papers regarding RF exposure. There has also been a lot of shoddy journalism. There have been medical papers where the lab animals were exposed to an RF field from an antenna. The problem? The researchers confused near and far field equations. The actual measured field was higher, such that the lab animals were getting cooked.

Others included studies of leukemia and power lines. The researchers ASSUMED the field from higher voltage power lines would be less. However, when they went back and actually measured the field, they correlation they thought was there disappeared.

There have also been researchers who examined cumulative exposures to RF-- as if it were ionizing radiation. It is Non-Ionizing radiation. There were also studies of the mortality of ham radio enthusiasts compared to other people of similar socio-economic class. The problem? Again, they didn't actually measure any of the fields, nor did they account for the more sedentary lifestyle, nor did they account for the issue of exposure to all sorts of other things, not the least of which was lead solder.

I could go on. These researchers aren't stupid. However, they're subject to a publish or perish environment. So their approaches are limited to the meager time and resources they have to do the study.

What? Hams lead a sedimentary lifestyle? Say it isn’t so.

 

[AK9R]

Hams lead a sedimentary lifestyle?

Sedimentary? You mean they are rock formed from sediment? Who knew?

 

[MUTNAV]

Quoting the article you cited:
"...the biology of why TMS works isn't completely understood, the stimulation appears to affect how the brain is working. It seems to ease depression symptoms and improve mood."

The issue is that this is a pulsed magnetic field, not RF --and they don't fully understand why their approach works.

There have been many problems in many many papers regarding RF exposure. There has also been a lot of shoddy journalism. There have been medical papers where the lab animals were exposed to an RF field from an antenna. The problem? The researchers confused near and far field equations. The actual measured field was higher, such that the lab animals were getting cooked.

Others included studies of leukemia and power lines. The researchers ASSUMED the field from higher voltage power lines would be less. However, when they went back and actually measured the field, they correlation they thought was there disappeared.

There have also been researchers who examined cumulative exposures to RF-- as if it were ionizing radiation. It is Non-Ionizing radiation. There were also studies of the mortality of ham radio enthusiasts compared to other people of similar socio-economic class. The problem? Again, they didn't actually measure any of the fields, nor did they account for the more sedentary lifestyle, nor did they account for the issue of exposure to all sorts of other things, not the least of which was lead solder.

I could go on. These researchers aren't stupid. However, they're subject to a publish or perish environment. So their approaches are limited to the meager time and resources they have to do the study.

Ok... So the hang up is the frequency range of the E-M? Unfortunately, they haven't given us much info on pulse rates or anything, so I don't know if it's RF, AF, or Sub-audible.... so obviously at lot of this is speculation...

The credence of the subject is increased in that it's an approved treatment. Microwave hearing is also one of the ideas that has non-thermal RF effects in it....

I unfortunatly am not willing to pay for a copy of any of the studies that have been done, and I'm not a university professor or student that gets access to studies for free (of course we're talking about actual studies, not like the climate change people that quote a "study" they read in a magazine, I've always wondered what the math looks like at the end of the "study").

Anyone with free access to studies, please share your understanding of the results.

I agree that researchers are (generally) not stupid, but when I (very rarely) read a study, sometimes the conclusions aren't what the person doing the study is proposing.

Thanks
Joel

 

[GlobalNorth]

Sedimentary? You mean they are rock formed from sediment? Who knew?

Initial igneous formation, resulting in ultramafic strata leads to a rather 'toasty' personality.

 

[chrismol1]

Were you working with high powered stuff or? as it caught on it looks like stuff like this started using a tad higher power, the early ones they were close by and used relatively low power

EC V

www.cryptomuseum.com

"This means that at the maximum transmitter power of 500W, the effectively radiated power (ERP) in the direction of the target, was approx. 10kW. This was sufficient to power a PE inside a building at a distance of more than 200 metres."
I have to wonder how far they were doing in the later years, and how much more power that required as distances around sensative areas grew
You think something like this is the havanna sydrome?

The device I played with had little in common with The Thing and I have seen an exact replica of that in person. After reading more about it I don’t think the RF fields required at the device for it to operate would be considered dangerous.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.

Anyone that travels Route 32 thru Fort Meade, Maryland can't help but be impressed by the shiny emerald mirror'd surfaces of the multi-storied NSA headquarters building. You can imagine what those surface are and what they are for.

Take in the sights as you drive by, but believe me, if you stop along the shoulder you will get a visit !
__________________________________________________________

On lighter note, you can visit the The National Cryptologic Museum right next door, in the former Colony 7 motel. You can explore all the neat stuff the secret squirrels used thru-out history-- they even have a WW2 German Enigma machine the docents have let me program and play with to my heart's content.

The museum is just off 32, but it is quite unknown to the public---- I wonder why ?

Lauri



.

 

[prcguy]

.

Anyone that travels Route 32 thru Fort Meade, Maryland can't help but be impressed by the shiny emerald mirror'd surfaces of The multi-storied NSA headquarters building. You can imagine what those surface are and what they are for.

Take in the sights as you drive by, but believe me, if you stop along the shoulder you will get a visit !
__________________________________________________________

On lighter note, you can visit the The National Cryptologic Museum right next door, in the former Colony 7 motel. You can explore all the neat stuff the secret squirrels used thru-out history-- they even have a WW2 German Enigma machine the docents have let me program and play with to my heart's content.

The museum is just off 32, but it is quite unknown to the public---- I wonder why ?

Lauri

View attachment 143171

Some conference rooms where I’ve worked had either vibrating devices on the windows or a boom box radio turned up and facing the windows.

 

[MUTNAV]

Were you working with high powered stuff or? as it caught on it looks like stuff like this started using a tad higher power, the early ones they were close by and used relatively low power

EC V

www.cryptomuseum.com

"This means that at the maximum transmitter power of 500W, the effectively radiated power (ERP) in the direction of the target, was approx. 10kW. This was sufficient to power a PE inside a building at a distance of more than 200 metres."
I have to wonder how far they were doing in the later years, and how much more power that required as distances around sensative areas grew
You think something like this is the havanna sydrome?

The power thing is interesting, we may need less power now for tech things, like the difference between the old Russian radars on MIG 25s which were very high power, or the lower power radars on US jets that made up for the difference in power with some really good signal processing.

or the differences between the old SAGE network buildings (with a 3 story vacuum tube computer) with huge air-conditioning arrangements, and lets say a cell phone, which has more computing power.

Semi-Automatic Ground Environment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even crystal radios now can have a zero voltage FET as their detector, and (reportedly) do ok without an antenna.

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/culter.pdf

Thanks
Joel

 

[ladn]

What was a remarkable lesson here, however, was with only a few seconds exposure our nail polish had been cleanly stripped from our fingers.
No one has ever offered a explanation.

Did the nail polish have metallic glitter, sparkles or gold leaf?

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

I am not sure, it was years ago-- tho I was never was into anything fancy like glittering nail polish.

We did discuss what happened with some much more intelligent faculty who first advised against any more such shenanigans (like we took that advise---) years later we were still preforming similar "investigations"** -(see below)

The mostly likely explanation was in the molecular structure of the nail lacquer that resonated at just the right frequency to absorb -- and volatilize ---- at those microwave frequencies.

"Too bad it just volatilized"
"Think what a neat thing it would have been if it burst in to flames !" (see footnote)

As far as we two were concerned, the show ended there
We never repeated it-- at least with any personal body parts--

Lauri




_________________________________________________________________________________________

You Tube is ripe with this sort of thing. Light bulbs are good-- but for a real physics lesson in resonance, try a grape cut in half
(ok class, tell me what happened to the grape - and why...... )

.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I am not sure, it was years ago-- tho I was never was into anything fancy like glittering nail polish.

We did discuss what happened with some much more intelligent faculty who first advised against any more such shenanigans (like we took that advise---) years later we were still preforming similar "investigations"** -(see below)

The mostly likely explanation was in the molecular structure of the nail lacquer that resonated at just the right frequency to absorb -- and volatilize ---- at those microwave frequencies.

"Too bad it just volatilized"
"Think what a neat thing it would have been if it burst in to flames !" (see footnote)

As far as we two were concerned, the show ended there
We never repeated it-- at least with any personal body parts--

Lauri

View attachment 143238


_________________________________________________________________________________________

You Tube is ripe with this sort of thing. Light bulbs are good-- but for a real physics lesson in resonance, try a grape cut in half
(ok class, tell me what happened to the grape - and why...... )

.

More likely that a layer of moisture in the nails turned to steam and lifted the polish right off. Maybe a patent-able procedure?

 

[MUTNAV]

More likely that a layer of moisture in the nails turned to steam and lifted the polish right off. Maybe a patent-able procedure?

I was wondering about something similar, along the lines of nail care people having a box for a customer to put their hand in, and in a few seconds, they could start putting on new polish.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

I was wondering about something similar, along the lines of nail care people having a box for a customer to put their hand in, and in a few seconds, they could start putting on new polish.

Thanks
Joel

Sounds like something along the lines of the miracle Radium snake oil cures from the early 20th century. As in something that would be much regretted in the future.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Polonium 210. You're soaking in it! - Madge