So i heard from a few very reliable sources and then confirmed this myself but it seems that Sayerville FD has turned on Encryption on everything but their fire dispatch channel on the towns trunking system. I know nearby Perth Amboy FD uses encryption, why will always be beyond me, but is this a sign of things to come for FD in jersey? Are we really gonna start encrypting our fire communications and operations? These salesmen need to be stopped its getting out of hand. let's hope this doesn't stick around for long.
Sayerville FD Encryption
- Thread starter Murenovich
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There is many agencies ems, fire who use it exclusively and haven't had any issues after well planning and having mou with other agencies to share keys or go to specific clear channels for mou mutual aide.
The only two Fire agencies in NJ that use encryption are now Sayreville and Perth Amboy. And they don’t share their keys. NJ isn’t a state of true interoperability, it’s preached left and right with ICS and county systems yet nobody truely uses it for interoperability. Units still have to have to dispatch reach out to their surrounding towns to relay information instead of units switching to an interop channel themselves. It sets a dangerous precedent of exclusivity and can increases the potential danger to MOS who rely on communications to stay alive. It’s another layer that can break or cause issues on top of an already complex system that has had countless issues from its inception. Encryption has its place in Public Safety but I’m sorry this isn’t that place. Keep it to a police & EMS tactical channels. If it’s information you don’t want going over the air so what most departments do now, use a cell phone.
radioman2001
Member
Run for office and if you win have it disabled
902
Member
Just a statement on "interoperability" without caring about the E or not - Interoperability doesn't mean being able to communicate with everyone all of the time. Regular operations don't need to be interoperable with anyone except internally. If there's a common incident, they do need to be able to switch to some common ground. In a hypothetical situation where both agencies have different key variables, or even different digital systems (didn't we fix that with a standard - or even with analog FM?), as long as they can achieve a common mode and frequency at a common incident, check that "interoperability" box off. It's more planning and mindset than hardware and settings.
Give it time. Most things will be over a cellphone soon enough.
This will stick around and once its done its all over with. More and more FD's down the road are going to jump on this wagon. There is no turning back at this point. We are just at a stage in history or this decade that now the Fire Departments are jumping on the encryption wagon. Law Enforcement has been on this wagon for a while now. You are starting to see the first way of department like Fire jumping on now.
Oops you're right I forgot about the secret squirrels in Piscataway too. They like a few other police departments in this state don't have the best moral or public track records and oddly enough they all have had encryption for awhile or have recently joined the big E bandwagon.
Unfortunately while I really hope this isn't true it seems to be the logical progression as we are seeing it more and more. Let's just hope things turn out the way they did in Washington DC with DCFD, they switched to the new system with the big E turned on had many issues with it and hated it turned off the big E and issues went away. There's absolutely no reason to encrypt fire communications, I understand encrypting police tactical channels (not dispatch thats another convo for another place and time) and maybe one or two EMS tactical channels but Encryption has zero place in the fire service.
I understand that interoperability doesn't mean they need to interop 24/7, the problem is nobody uses a common interop channel. Most towns don't have anything but their local talkgroups in their radios. You are 100% correct on it being a mindset. Interoperability is a mindset more than anything and that mindset does not exist at least not in central/north NJ. NJICS & the countless county digital systems are all perfect examples of this. These systems are built by pushy salesmen upselling & overselling technology these counties don't need nor take the time to properly train on and then in turn properly train their users. Throw encryption in the mix and no one wants to even share their keys.
A perfect example is here in Somerset County, Franklin PD has been encrypted for as long as I can remember at least 10 years and they are self dispatched on their own trunking system. They constantly interact with county for the fire department since County mainly provides the dispatching even tho Franklin PD has the capability to do so. Nobody at county communications can hear Franklin PD because Franklin PD doesn't share their keys with anyone. A township within the county that constantly is utilizing county resources whether its Sheriff's Officers, Prosecutors, EMS mutual aid or fire mutual aid can't hear or talk to the Franklin police department unless they call by landline or go over the Franklin Trunking system either on Fire or EMS Main.
My whole point to posting this was to notify the fellow hobbyists & buffs out there so they know why it went dark and silent and to point out that encrypting fire communications serves absolutely zero purpose and there is simply no justification for it. I wasn't looking to start the next big debate on Encryption and its overuse and abuse in this country just trying to point out that another one bites the big E dust and another busy town can no longer be heard.
902
Member
Personally, I didn't think you were trying to start a debate more than express a degree of frustration. I was engaged to a girl in Piscataway a long time ago, so I spent quite a bit of time in and around Middlesex County. In my view, things started to move in this direction when the fire departments moved off 33.82/33.76 and the police departments went off VHF. The first I ever saw of crypto was at the Hess fire brigade in Port Reading (I was also surprised their apparatus were not green and white, but...). I thought it was unusual, but given the hazardous materials potential, I can see the business case for them. With Hess and Union Carbide being empty lots now, and the shift toward residential areas, I would have thought this negated at least some of the need.
902
Member
Good question. I was going to ask how many departments still have 33.82 radios in their trucks. The simplest solution tends to be the best.
I do believe they go through the county hotline and then they have the fireground channels. The fireground channels are conventional in the clear channels, if they are close enough to the new market firehouse you can pick them up on their feed and actually hear the operations. I am not sure what the frequencies are for their firegrounds tho.
lovescanner
Member
the good old days of 33.8200
mdsxfire
EDBM
We carry motorola radios that have somerset county TRS on one zone and Piscataway fire on another zone, plus we keep one of our msex County TRS Radio’s on Fire M/A 1
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jaymatt1978
Member
Without starting a long thread I never understood why fire departments need encryption. Police ok SWAT and other tactics, even EMS for "patient privacy", poor excuse but OK.,. I am complete baffled why the fire departments need to encrypt
How about Fairview NJ, in Bergen County. PD and DPW went to NJICS and encrypted both. Guess DPW needs encryption so the snow cant see the plows coming! LOL
Tac-1
Member
Just another secret state
NYRHKY94
Member
Town and/or city fire departments going ENC is always an "interesting" topic (i.e. real head scratcher). The vast, vast majority of FD's around the country have no issue with their communications being in the clear and many of them have even set up their own feeds on Broadcastify (including official feeds). The real reason why a select town and/or city FD in NJ or elsewhere decides to go ENC, can only be answered by those that run the town and/or city, i.e. the elected officials.....
Bob1955
Member
LMAO
Maybe Radioman 2001 has given thought and reason as why municipalities are going encrypted. Well, he hit it on the head where this direction is coming from. If history is the basis for success as we move forward in life, some politicians are young enough not to remember that devastating day, September 11, 2001. That day was a day of eye opening recognition for law enforcement. We weren't prepared!
With thousands whom were killed, the devastating loss to commercial, municipal (city) and private properties was overwhelming. The day we will always remember. Here in Jersey, police and fire administrations conferenced together after the fact, using the 9/11 tragedy as the 'what if' situation. Communications here were always less than adequate and not uncommon to be able to communicate with departments in neighboring towns, and counties.
What my generation learned was you have to be able to communicate by radio because you can't depend on 'ma bell'. That day, land lines went down in Jersey as well as most cellular carriers, with the exclusion of Verizon Wireless. My cell was given to my chief for logistics with the hope other Verizon phones were out there.
Advancements in communications with digital radios was the answer. To get it right was also the challenge. No longer will we need the extensive T1 & T8 lines to carry those pre 9/11 signals. Now that the radio systems are state of the art, we need to use them as our first line of defense with law enforcement and Homeland Security.
I understand that there are needs to encrypt some communications, but why administrators feel they need complete privacy is beyond me. The most important part of law enforcement is to get the word out there! Sometimes we forget.
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