Should I enter all the other Freq.'s in the Freq Section

[4phun]

A potential problem with just entering the listed CCs, one that bit me a while back on the Santa Clara, CA system: they might move the control channels around. Several months ago, the RR database listed 4 CCs for this system, and those were the only ones I had entered. One day, I noticed that my scanner had gone completely silent. I entered the remaining system frequencies, and traffic was back to "normal". It seems that either a) the CCs listed in the database were incorrect or b) they'd changed which of the system's freqs were used as CCs.

For "small" systems like the City of Santa Clara, CA, I'll enter all of the frequencies. At the very least, I'll enter all of them temporarily if the system goes "quiet", just to see if they've moved things around.

When you have the system working correctly in your scanner and a talkgroup becomes active, STOP, press MANUAL and copy down the Sys Id.

Then if a system ever appears to go ‘dark’ because you have not entered the control channel that the system has switched to, please do the following…

Locate the last known good control channel for that system. Press FUNC TUNE.

Press TUNE and use the UP and Down arrows to look up or down for a new control frequency.
When one is found enter it by pressing FUNC ENTER. Press MANUAl and look at the sys ID. If you have the correct system you are good to go. If not press TUNE and keep looking until you find the right control channel again.

Vic Healey

 

[DonS]

Well, just for fun, I eliminated all channels in the bank except for the current CCs for the City of Santa Clara and Crystal systems. I now have only two channels programmed in this bank, and it's the only bank I'm scanning.

I'm hearing traffic on both systems. I don't know if I'm hearing everything, and I probably never will (I'm not interested enough to perform the necessary tests).

However, I've proven (to myself, at least) that you don't to separate the control channels from different systems, by "blank' channels or conventional frequencies. I hear about as much traffic on the SC city system as I normally do, with periodic traffic on this Crystal system. It looks like the radio is scanning both systems quite well.

 

[loumaag]

...I'm hearing traffic on both systems. I don't know if I'm hearing everything, and I probably never will (I'm not interested enough to perform the necessary tests). ...

Once again, if I had another data slicer (which I am not anxious to build right now) I would go ahead and monitor with the 96 and run Trunker on two computers at the same time. Not having that situation, and just from observation of one CC in Trunker while scanning two CC's (the two closest) I came to the conclusion that the only thing I was missing was when a conversation I was listening to, did not start on the CC I was watching in Trunker, and one started there. (Or of course if multi convo's were taking place.)

The other thing I noticed was sometimes if I was hearing something I didn't particularly care about (in open mode of course) and I saw a TG go active in Trunker I wanted to hear on the other CC, if I hit the <SCAN> button, about 75% of the time, it would return to the conversation I didn't want to hear. This leads me to believe that it actually returns to CC that it started from as opposed to jumping on down (or up) the list. Since the same TG was still going, it just sent me back to the VC I was trying to scan away from.

Don, your point about the potential problem of loading CC's (and alts) only and the system changing to an unknown CC or alt is exactly why more people need to run Trunker or T4Win on the systems in their areas and verify the published data. I am not suggesting that every scanner owner should tap their brand new Pro-96 or Bearcat, but there are plenty of people out there who have old conventional scanners that they really aren't using anymore that can be put to this use. For those of you who may be interested, but are put off my comment about a data slicer above, remember if you are looking at an EDACS or Motorola 3.6K CC system, you can just use the baseband audio into the sound card and run Rick Parrish's T4Win. (Unless you are unlucky enough to be studying a new Moto VHF/UHF system, which it doesn't to correctly yet.) Check out the Online Content section on the home page of this site for more information.

Happy scanning,

 

[rdale]

Maybe it has something to do with 9600-CC's? That's all I had - 3 CC's in a row all from monitorable 9600-CC's from my area and never picked up a transmission from the other 2 CC's until adding the conv freq's in between.

If someone had an app that monitored the APCO25 CC output of the scanner that might confirm?

- Rob

 

[loumaag]

Maybe it has something to do with 9600-CC's? That's all I had - 3 CC's in a row all from monitorable 9600-CC's from my area and never picked up a transmission from the other 2 CC's until adding the conv freq's in between.

If someone had an app that monitored the APCO25 CC output of the scanner that might confirm?

Rob, this is certainly a possability. We know that the Pro-96 treats 9.6K APCO-25 CC's differently (conclusion drawn from differing display and ability to output the datastream via the port). I don't think I knew you were dealing with at 9.6K CC. Hmmm, I am trying to remember, when I traveled through Colorado, I am pretty sure I just loaded up the state's CC's (as we have them here) and went with that but I changed the file after we finished the trip so I can't swear to it, but in any case I seemed to be able to follow the system pretty well as I traveled up I-25.

As for the monitoring app, I haven't heard of anyone who actually did anything with that other than to confirm you could get packets out. ...

 

[rdale]

"went with that but I changed the file after we finished the trip so I can't swear to it, but in any case I seemed to be able to follow the system pretty well as I traveled up I-25"

I do the same while traveling but my contention is that sitting here at home with 3 CC's in the bank I only hear one CC per bank ever (unless I move my radio, pull the antenna and put it back on, or use the trick.)

 

[b52hbuff]

While we're talking about control channel only mode...

The RR database lists primary and alternate control channels. How
do you know this information? Clearly you can monitor and then hear
the control channel. How do you know which one is the 'primary'?

I second Don's observation about moving CCs... The information about
the Disneyland information isn't correct. They've moved one or more
of their control channels.

 

[BobWeb]

<snip> Hmmm, I am trying to remember, when I traveled through Colorado, I am pretty sure I just loaded up the state's CC's (as we have them here) and went with that but I changed the file after we finished the trip so I can't swear to it, but in any case I seemed to be able to follow the system pretty well as I traveled up I-25. <snip>...

Well the discussion you guys are having is a little over my head, but I've driven extensively up and down I-25 (and many other places) using my scanner. I have a bank loaded with *just* the control channels for the state DTRS (no spacing) and the Pro-96 was able to follow them just fine. Periodically, it would switch from CC to CC as I moved around. It appears to work fine. Just my 02.

 

[loumaag]

The RR database lists primary and alternate control channels. How do you know this information? Clearly you can monitor and then hear the control channel. How do you know which one is the 'primary'?

The information comes from the users. Mostly the "primary" was the one that was being used at the time the initial poster submitted the info. When you run trunker on a Moto system, it reports what the current control channel is and any alternates being announced by the CC. This is where the alternates come in. As for the CC's changing, we can only put what we know in the DB. If people report the changes we will change the DB.

 

[loumaag]

... my contention is that sitting here at home with 3 CC's in the bank I only hear one CC per bank ever (unless I move my radio, pull the antenna and put it back on, or use the trick.)

Rob,
I have also discovered that OPEN/CLOSED seems to have an effect on the ability to "see" all the CC's without the trick. It appears that in CLOSED mode, the radio seems to hang on one CC, whereas in OPEN it looks at all of them. Could this be why we were not getting the same results? I know that this doesn't seem to have any logic, but further playing with the system here it became evident that I was missing some conversations in CLOSED mode when I would get them in OPEN mode (of unlocked, programed TG's of course.) :?

 

[b52hbuff]

When you run trunker on a Moto system, it reports what the current control channel is and any alternates being announced by the CC. This is where the alternates come in. As for the CC's changing, we can only put what we know in the DB. If people report the changes we will change the DB.

I knew the source of the data was from external contributors.

What I didn't know washow the CC was determined beyond simple
monitoring.

I know that at any given time, there can only be one active CC. What
are the rules for how many possible alternates may exist?

 

[W4KRR]

Motorola systems will have a maximum of four control channels. EDACS systems, I don't know.

 

[loumaag]

Motorola systems will have a maximum of four control channels.

Per site. Although in practical matters, a smart zone sytem will seldom have 4 channels assigned at a site unless it may be the "main" site.

What I didn't know washow the CC was determined beyond simple monitoring.

Additional information is available by running trunker, for example, in a smart zone system, each CC also announces its neighbors and what frequency their control channel is on. Sure makes checking out a new system easier.

 

[b52hbuff]

So how many control channels can a Motorola radio 'scan'? As someone
said, there can only be four CC frequencies per site. But some of the
larger multi-site systems have more than four different CCs.

So how can a radio with only four possible frequencies find and
associate to a a large multisite system?

 

[loumaag]

So how can a radio with only four possible frequencies find and associate to a a large multisite system?

HUH? What do you mean? :?:

 

[zgafford]

So how can a radio with only four possible frequencies find and
associate to a a large multisite system?

If it's just a large area it covers like Sacramento, CA then you have your 4 cc's and a crap load of vc's. Sac county has like 24 vc's to cover all the talkgroups they have.

If for example it's a state patrol system then each main city will have a control channel (maybe only 1 or 2) and however many vc's they deem necessary.

 

[jab4545]

# of Control Channels

For Motorola Type II trunking, my recollection is that in
WAC (Wide Area Coverage) mode, up to 8 control
channel frequencies may be entered. For a Type II SmartZone
system, I recall reading the number of control channels is
up to 32.

Jean B.

 

[4phun]

... my contention is that sitting here at home with 3 CC's in the bank I only hear one CC per bank ever (unless I move my radio, pull the antenna and put it back on, or use the trick.)

Rob,
I have also discovered that OPEN/CLOSED seems to have an effect on the ability to "see" all the CC's without the trick. It appears that in CLOSED mode, the radio seems to hang on one CC, whereas in OPEN it looks at all of them. Could this be why we were not getting the same results? I know that this doesn't seem to have any logic, but further playing with the system here it became evident that I was missing some conversations in CLOSED mode when I would get them in OPEN mode (of unlocked, programed TG's of course.) :?

Bull

The Pro-96 works perfectly in CLOSED MODE.

I don't know why so many others seem to have a problem udnerstanding how to scan multiple systems in the same bank when I always have at least one bank set up this way in most of my V-folders.

BTW it scans faster in lcosed mode than in open mode when you have more than one system in the same bank. I load mine up with at least seven systems here in metro Atlanta.

Vic

 

[rdale]

"BTW it scans faster in lcosed mode than in open mode when you have more than one system in the same bank. "

No difference on my APCO25 system, I have half open and half closed and notice the same time in each bank.

- Rob

 

[b52hbuff]

So how can a radio with only four possible frequencies find and associate to a a large multisite system?

HUH? What do you mean? :?:

Ok, assume that a SmartNet system have have up to 4 CCs...

The radios used by that system need to know those CCs so when they
power up, they can use the system...

...if we are in a SmartZone system with multiple sites, then there can
be a large number of CCs. Something like 2-4 CCs per site and I don't
know how many sites.

The question is how many CC frequencies can you program into the Moto
radios so that when they come up, they can find a CC to work on. I
assume that they must 'scan' and do no 'search' for a CC...

...so where do I find out how many CCs can be entered?