simulcast towers

[CooCoo]

Alright, i have a question , can the simulcast towers be chained together?
what i mean is can i connect to one tower in my area and have it communicate to another farther away
i live in st.joe county indiana which is like a cereal bowl i can reach 40-50+ miles away basically to all the surrounding counties but i can"t get 2 counties past me. is it my antenna? is that all i get? cause i"m not putting a nasa antenna on my roof,lol. or it some tweaked setting in the advanced setting page?

 

[KK4JUG]

Your location may be your greatest enemy but the antenna is not far behind. Search around in this forum to see what others are using.

I'm fortunate because 99% of my scanning takes place in town and the local system has a strong, clean signal. The original antenna works just fine. On the road, however, I hook up an external antenna.

 

[CooCoo]

That"s some great advice and taken well, but it did not answer my question or maybe it did! i guess in logical thinking that if i were in Indiana that i could not hear NY by chaining tower to tower as the signal would be lost down the line. so maybe my question was an idiotic ( or naive ) reply, from lack of understanding. so i thank everyone helping me understand

 

[KevinC]

I moved your question to its own thread since it had noting to do with the original thread,

 

[troymail]

Alright, i have a question , can the simulcast towers be chained together?
what i mean is can i connect to one tower in my area and have it communicate to another farther away

As a scanner user - or even as any real user of a system, you have no control whatsoever as to how the system functions. Actual authorized transmitting subscriber usage coupled with how the system has been set up by the system's admins determine what you hear on various sites (i.e. how they are "connected").

i live in st.joe county indiana which is like a cereal bowl i can reach 40-50+ miles away basically to all the surrounding counties but i can"t get 2 counties past me. is it my antenna? is that all i get? cause i"m not putting a nasa antenna on my roof,lol. or it some tweaked setting in the advanced setting page?

Older systems were designed to blast out the same signal across large areas (i.e. like an entire county or even beyond). Newer systems (I put almost all P25 systems into that "newer" category) generally user smaller footprint sites that are intended to cover those areas - not the entire area. There are probably some extreme things you can do to receive more distant sites but it probably isn't worth it. Of course, there will always be exceptions to everything.

 

[jonwienke]

Even on a multistate system, you generally aren't going to hear traffic from 3 states away, except on a small number of system-wide talkgroups that will be rarely used.

You have no control over which talkgroups are broadcast from each site. That is set by system administrators, not users, and especially not scanner listeners who cannot even transmit.

 

[CooCoo]

Merry Christmas to all!!!!!

i just purchased a discone antenna a week ago and finaly put it up on the roof 30 feet from the roof top on a 2" military fiberglass ham radio mast, the best i was getting on my other antenna "Maxx Tenna" pvc thing was 40-50 miles,on my ws1065, but now on my ws1098 and the new antenna i am pulling in more then 150 miles when i do a search from where i am to the county it is listing on the scanner some are over 200 miles and most are full bands on signal strength all without an amp, for instance i live in Mishawaka,Indiana-to -Bluffton,Indiana when i do a get directions on the map it says it is 103 miles away not sure if i got lucky with my geographical possition or this antenna is just awesome,, or it is the height that i have it at. has anyone else experienced this kinda gain just from an antenna?? is this normal or just some kinda freak thing? if this is normal then an amp on my system would be even greater?
note: just now listening and picking up Leopold,Indiana from my house Mishawaka,Indiana is 314 miles away how is this possible?

 

[troymail]

Merry Christmas to all!!!!!

i just purchased a discone antenna a week ago and finaly put it up on the roof 30 feet from the roof top on a 2" military fiberglass ham radio mast, the best i was getting on my other antenna "Maxx Tenna" pvc thing was 40-50 miles,on my ws1065, but now on my ws1098 and the new antenna i am pulling in more then 150 miles when i do a search from where i am to the county it is listing on the scanner some are over 200 miles and most are full bands on signal strength all without an amp, for instance i live in Mishawaka,Indiana-to -Bluffton,Indiana when i do a get directions on the map it says it is 103 miles away not sure if i got lucky with my geographical possition or this antenna is just awesome,, or it is the height that i have it at. has anyone else experienced this kinda gain just from an antenna?? is this normal or just some kinda freak thing? if this is normal then an amp on my system would be even greater?
note: just now listening and picking up Leopold,Indiana from my house Mishawaka,Indiana is 314 miles away how is this possible?

I can't say for sure what you are seeing -- 300+ miles is quite a distance...

In my history and experience, I got fooled some time ago into thinking I was receiving a trunk system from the next state over when in fact, I ultimately determined it was just a common frequency being used on a system that was more local (maybe a couple of counties away).

Having said that, I had in the past received a VHF EDACS trunking system from about 60 miles away while driving around. I suspect this was simply because of the age of the system (older systems tend to transmit with more power) and topography (signal probably riding the bay between the towers and my location).

 

[iMONITOR]

Alright, i have a question , can the simulcast towers be chained together?
what i mean is can i connect to one tower in my area and have it communicate to another farther away
i live in st.joe county indiana which is like a cereal bowl i can reach 40-50+ miles away basically to all the surrounding counties but i can"t get 2 counties past me. is it my antenna? is that all i get? cause i"m not putting a nasa antenna on my roof,lol. or it some tweaked setting in the advanced setting page?

As I understand it, all antenna tower sights on a given simulcast system do carry the exact same traffic, ie; talk groups.

I live in Macomb County, Michigan. Last I checked we have nine different towers (soon to be more) on a single simulcast system. All nine carry the same radio communication as the rest.

This why some people have difficulty getting good reception, because of the redundancy of multiple sites, using the same frequency and talk groups.

 

[LubeckTech]

CooCoo-

Adding a preamp AT THE ANTENNA and injecting the power in your building MIGHT help you out. It mainly depends on how much coax you have. Preamps basically compensate for signal loss inherent in the cable so if you have a short cable run, depending on the cable, (not all coax is created equal) you would probably see no real difference. Putting an amplifier next to the receiver is a waste because while you will amplify the signal you will also amplify the noise. Meaning your signal level might increase so will the noise. The trick is to achieve a good signal to noise ratio which is achieved with a good antenna in a good location (which you seem to have) and the least possible amount of coax of a type that has the least amount of loss for the frequencies you wish to listen.

 

[iMONITOR]

CooCoo-

Adding a preamp AT THE ANTENNA and injecting the power in your building MIGHT help you out. It mainly depends on how much coax you have. Preamps basically compensate for signal loss inherent in the cable so if you have a short cable run, depending on the cable, (not all coax is created equal) you would probably see no real difference. Putting an amplifier next to the receiver is a waste because while you will amplify the signal you will also amplify the noise. Meaning your signal level might increase so will the noise. The trick is to achieve a good signal to noise ratio which is achieved with a good antenna in a good location (which you seem to have) and the least possible amount of coax of a type that has the least amount of loss for the frequencies you wish to listen.

The reception issues with simulcast systems is normally not due to a weak signal. A preamp would likely exacerbate the problem.

SIMULCAST-Lessons Learned
http://adcommeng.com/Simulcast_Lessons_Learned_IWCE20083.pdf

 

[jonwienke]

CooCoo-

Adding a preamp AT THE ANTENNA and injecting the power in your building MIGHT help you out. It mainly depends on how much coax you have.

No. If you already have a 4-bar signal but are having reception trouble, then signal strength is NOT the problem. Amplifying a messy signal just gives you a louder mess, and adds the probability of intermod and other undesirable crap. The best course of action is to get a directional antenna to clean up the simulcast distortion.

 

[fredva]

I'm not real sure the OP is actually dealing with simulcast or not. Simulcast was mentioned, but it was mentioned in the context of chaining towers together from NY to Indiana. Simulcast is usually a local or regional issue.

As far as hearing somebody 314 miles away in the same state, it's theoretically possible that certain talkgroups on the Indiana system are being broadcast on every tower in the state. And the OP is just picking up a local tower with that statewide broadcast. But it would be useful to know the system and talkgroup that is being displayed on the scanner when these distant transmissions are received. The origin of the transmissions isn't enough to explain what is happening. Is it a VHF conventional system? Is it the statewide trunking system?

 

[CooCoo]

thanks for all the replies,as said before in previous threads i am not new to scanners persay, however in the late 80's early 90's wasa when i jacked around with a couple of RS programables and they obviously were not trunked systems,, as of the present time i am currently only running state wide trunked systems and the 314 miles must be a lie, now i must say that the ws1065 and win500 seems like is a better choice for programming then the ws1098 and the sd card "ezscan" that has all usa and canada on it so programming it seams not so acurate. again there is a lot to try to understand for basically a rookie in this day and age
i do appreaciate all the input and help, in me understanding all this lingo, Thanks to all

 

[troymail]

thanks for all the replies,as said before in previous threads i am not new to scanners persay, however in the late 80's early 90's wasa when i jacked around with a couple of RS programables and they obviously were not trunked systems,, as of the present time i am currently only running state wide trunked systems and the 314 miles must be a lie, now i must say that the ws1065 and win500 seems like is a better choice for programming then the ws1098 and the sd card "ezscan" that has all usa and canada on it so programming it seams not so acurate. again there is a lot to try to understand for basically a rookie in this day and age
i do appreaciate all the input and help, in me understanding all this lingo, Thanks to all

If you've updated the frequency and location data on your PC and the SD card of the WS1098 using EZ Scan, it will be nearly identical to the data Win500 provides for your WS1065.

 

[jonwienke]

i must say that the ws1065 and win500 seems like is a better choice for programming then the ws1098 and the sd card "ezscan" that has all usa and canada on it so programming it seams not so acurate

It all comes from the same database here at RadioReference, so there isn't going to be any significant difference in the programming data either way. Switching scanners will not help.

 

[LubeckTech]

I'm not certain he is actually trying to listen to simulcast systems but trying to listen to trunked systems or anything else as far away as possible which may or may not be simulcast. Funny thing about monitoring local digital simulcast is sometimes using a small inside antenna work as the radio only hears 1 strong signal rather than a bunch of time delayed data. Time was a good outside antenna was the thing but anymore things are more complicated and monitoring DX, local analog or digital simulcast trunk makes a difference in antenna selection. Has anyone tried using a good deep fringe directional UHF/VHF TV antenna, rotor and booster without FM trap for DX scanning? I have always that would work well.

 

[Ubbe]

.... Putting an amplifier next to the receiver is a waste because while you will amplify the signal you will also amplify the noise....

I always get a better reception regardless of antenna, coax and receiver type when using a good amplifier directly at the receiver and having a variable attenuator between amp and receiver to reduce overload. That indicates that I have no receiver that have a lower internal noise level than the external amplifier.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Line...-LNA-Gain-20dB-NF-0-5-dB-PGA-103/282639056910

/Ubbe

 

[jonwienke]

If you use an amp, it should always be as close to the antenna as possible. Anything else increases overall noise levels.

 

[LubeckTech]

I always get a better reception regardless of antenna, coax and receiver type when using a good amplifier directly at the receiver and having a variable attenuator between amp and receiver to reduce overload. That indicates that I have no receiver that have a lower internal noise level than the external amplifier. If a weak signal is lost thru the coax no matter how much you amplify it there is nothing to amplify.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Line...-LNA-Gain-20dB-NF-0-5-dB-PGA-103/282639056910

/Ubbe

More Power to Ya!!

Thanks for sharing that Ebay link - I did not know those small amps were that inexpensive.

I still maintain post amplification is basically a waste for this reason;
The "name of the game" in terms of gathering as much usable signal is Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR). Adding an amp at the receiver does not generally improve SNR. What post amplification could do is make the existing signals sound a little better by shoving a higher signal level into a receiver with a poorly designed and/or functioning front end & IF circuit. That being said it is a better use of your resources to amplify at the antenna so that you get a better SNR at the end of the coax going into the radio. If you lose a weak signal thru line loss there is nothing there no matter how much you amplify it.

Your Mileage May Vary