Solar Panel for car

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kf5qgf

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Ok so here's my issue. I drive a 2007 Suzuki Forenza, I often like to sit and listen to my radios near our airport or near the railyard, I have a pro-163, hooked up through a dc power inverter, with the ext speaker connected to the aux in port on my car's stock radio. Twice I've killed my battery and had to get jumped off. I know I could sit there with the car running but that has it's own implications, an idling car is an unhappy car, and gas is worth the price of gold, so here's the idea, I want to stick a solar panel on the roof to give a little extra juice to my car while I'm just sitting there. How would I go about tackling this project? I'd like a little room for expansion too, such as adding a transciever in the future. What math do I need? Where's a decent place for equipment? And have any of ya'll (note the MS location when I say ya'll) tried this before? Any help would be great.

Craig
 

nanZor

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..I want to stick a solar panel on the roof to give a little extra juice to my car while I'm just sitting there. How would I go about tackling this project?

Well, the spec for the 163 is 12v at 600mah so you can plan around that.

Ditch the power-inverter - that's a 30% hit in efficiency right there. Run straight from 13.8 volt power. Don't use the car radio, but use either the internal speaker, or a passive external. And I wouldn't recommend trying to use the car battery for long-term listening sessions, even with the 163 as you've found out.

Easiest way - use a dedicated battery just for listening sessions. Something like the Universal Battery UB80 (8 amp), rechargeable AGM (RS# 23-1363) when fully charged would provide you about 7-8 hours of listening before the battery dropped below 12v. This generally occurs at around the 50% DOD (depth of discharge) point. (.6 * 8hrs = 4.8 amps drawn out of the battery)

Note that I don't own a 163, and am not sure of it's maximum voltage capability. While I'm pretty sure you'd have no problem, I have to throw out a caution that it is something you'd want to check. While under charge, the battery voltage can go as high as 14.6 volts or so with a proper controller.

Now that we know what your power requirements are, you can estimate what solar panel you need. Typically, AGM's can go as high as C * .25 (in this case 8amps * .25 = 2amp max charging current). That would be the fastest charge at something like 2 hours (under best conditions at only a 50% DOD) So something like a 30-watt, nominal 12V panel (actually 18v or so measured open circuit) would do. For a 4 hour charge, a 15 watt panel should do. You could go smaller of course, but this will take more time to charge. It also depends on conditions, but at least you know the max rating. Always check the manufacturers spec.

BUT, you never connect a LARGE solar panel directly to a battery - you need a charge-controller in between. Something like the Morningstar SunGuard controller is a nice starter unit rated at 4.5 amps max from the solar panel.

Don't place a solar panel directly on your car's roof. Solar panels lose efficiency when they get hot, and you'd need at least 2 inches of spacing between. Angling it is a good idea if you can. And typically you'll be running a mono-crystalline panel which needs full sunlight - no shadows or debris across it - otherwise the panel practically goes to sleep. IF you envision parking in areas with perhaps very light shade, or will have a leaf or something fall across, then the "thin film" panels, although about 1/3 larger than monocrystalline, won't drop dead if a shadow or something falls across it.

What I would do before spending any money, is spend some time in the forums here:

http://www.windsun.com/

This is only one reputable place that has a great information, and hardware. Hopefully this can get you started - just remember that solar isn't really cheap once you start figuring out your power budget, and what it takes to get things charged in a relatively quick time.

The reason I went into such detail is that you mentioned expansion, and one of the most common costly mistakes is to purchase too small of a panel charging too large of a battery. (aka deficit-charging) Figuring out your power needs first, and THEN finding the right combo of solar panel and battery + charge controller, is the way to go.
 
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RKG

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You have received some very sound advice from Herzian.

For my money, there is a simpler approach than fooling around with PV solar. Get one of those "battery boxes" used for jump starting cars. It is basically a 12VDC sealed lead acid battery enclosed in device with jumper cables, a cigarette lighter plug, and facility for recharging via 110VAC wall wart, in a handy, easily portable package. Usually based on alarm panel batteries, device has about 7 AH of nominal capacity, which means you should be able to draw 2-3 AH before going home and putting the device on charge. You can plug your scanner into the battery box cigarette light plug socket using either mobile power cables (widely available) or make your own. Total cost under $100.
 

Seadoo

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Very simple fix, get yourself a small marine battery "allows for deep discharge" and a battery selector switch. Put your cars starting battery on connection 1 of the switch and your marine battery on connection #2 along with all your equiptment on this connection. While you drive around, leave the switch on setting marked all on the switch to charge both batteries. When you get to where you are going to listen, shut the car off and switch to #2. When you are done listening, Switch to #1 to start the vehicle and then switch back to all to keep all batteries charged.
 

skidplate

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I would agree with hertzian. Ditch the inverter and just run the radio from the cigar/acc power outlet with the proper cable. The radio draws very little current so unless you leave it turned on for days with out the engine running from time to time you should be fine.
 

RKG

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Very simple fix, get yourself a small marine battery "allows for deep discharge" and a battery selector switch. Put your cars starting battery on connection 1 of the switch and your marine battery on connection #2 along with all your equiptment on this connection. While you drive around, leave the switch on setting marked all on the switch to charge both batteries. When you get to where you are going to listen, shut the car off and switch to #2. When you are done listening, Switch to #1 to start the vehicle and then switch back to all to keep all batteries charged.

There are a couple of potential problems with this approach:

One: all of the issues of parallel batteries, particularly if the batteries are of different chemistries and different capacity.

Two: isolating the car from any DC may cause problems with on-board devices.
 
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One easy way to prevent your vehicle battery from dying, and while I agree with Hertzian, is to contact Havis, Inc. and install a Charge Guard. With installing a Charge Guard in your vehicle, it is a timed switch, yellow in color, which you can set anywhere from 3 minutes to 3 hours. This may or may not be exactly what your looking for, but when I upfit Police, Fire, EMS and Battalion Chief vehicles, we ALWAYS install a Charge Guard in the vehicle. With the amount of electronics installed into a Tahoe, Suburban, Charger, Caprice, Crown Vic, Expedition, etc, the Charge Guard will shut of power to your accessories and keep your battery from going dead, unless your battery is bad from the start. Once the Charge Guard shuts down, starting your vehicle is required to charge the battery back up again. That way, your forced to start the vehicle and re-charge the battery in your car. Again, like I said, this may or may not work for your application. Additionally, MAKE SURE that constant power from a solar panel, should you decide that option, will not damage your scanner. Because some of the vehicles we upfit sit for 3 or 4 days before driven, we wanted to make sure that with solar panels on the roof (ambulances and EMS Supervisor vehicles), that the constant charging would not damage the portables. As alot of us know, rechargeable batteries go south very fast if they are not discharged correctly, limiting the life of the battery and in some cases, damaging the portable. We installed a "limiter" in the vehicles as well that once the portables were charged 100%, the limiter would kick in and prevent overcharging. Likewise, if the limiter noticed a drop in the charge of the batteries, it would reverse and allow charging again. Our fleet of ambulances consists of 60 vehicles, so plugging each one in after every shift would be very costly for the agency. So, to keep the small refrigerators and portables charged or with power, we used solar panels. I hope we all have assisted you in your endeavor.
 

Jimru

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Lots of great stuff here, guys:

http://www.powerportstore.com/

Although DIY would be cheaper, for sure, than the complete kits at The Powerport Store, nevertheless it's a fun site with some good solutions to portable radio power.

Btw, I have no affiliation with them other than as a customer.

73,
Jim KC2LMH
 
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DaveNF2G

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Fascinating thread! I just want to drop a word of thanks to the OP for starting it and to the participants for the excellent responses.

Maybe this one rates Sticky status.
 

Thayne

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I agree with ditching the inverter, and would just add that your car battery is probably on it's last hurrah:p
 

UvGotIssuesToo

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I don't know much about solar charging systems...my first recommendation would be to ditch the car battery and pick up a Optima Yellow Top battery. They last longer & charge quicker.
 

nanZor

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Another option is to use a low-powered scanner in the first place. If you don't need PL, alpha-tags, etc, for your application, cheaper than all this solar stuff (don't get me wrong, I love solar for hobby apps), then check out my reviews of the Uniden BC340CRS or BC370CRS if you need milair coverage:

http://forums.radioreference.com/sc...iden-bc-340-370-crs-desktops.html#post1751989

They sip power at around 110ma as measured on the 12V jack, and you could even forego that and use the internal battery backup driven by three AA's. Even though meant for the bedroom, I find them useful portable this way. Instead of dealing with a handheld (another option), you could just prop it up on your dash since you aren't moving. (You DONT want to put anything there while moving and have the air-bags open and injure/kill you with a scanner through the forehead). The audio is louder than a handheld, but not louder than the 163.

Just an option to consider - going solar for just this might be overkill.
 

W2NJS

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A good, reasonably charged, car battery should be able to power you scanner for many hours and then start the car with no problem. Maybe all you need is a new battery, or possibly an adjustment/check of your voltage regulator for its charging setup.
 

Russell

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I think the real culprit here is the "dc power inverter" set up. I understand this to mean a 12 VDC to 120VAC inverter with the AC wall wart power supply that comes with the scanner plugged into. This set-up is not efficient and will run your battery down in no time. The problem is the inverter will suck the maximum DC juice it needs to produce the maximum AC rating regardless of how little is actually being used by the scanner.

I'm very interested in the solar cell, battery and controller info being presented here and hope that discussion continues. This thread has become a great reference for solar power systems.

To address the OP's issue I think a regular 12 V cigar lighter "adapter" for the 163 will solve the problem. For the 163 it looks to be a straight 12v cigar lighter plug. Buy the lighter plug and connect the 12V wiring harness to it. The scanner should be able to run for days on the car battery and still be able to start the car.

Enercell 12V/10A Solderless Vehicle Adapter Plug : Adapter Plugs | RadioShack.com

Russell
 
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kf5qgf

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Hello everyone. Sorry I know I'm the OP and haven't participated, but the thread was exactly what I was looking for, a collaboration of minds coming together and hashing out a problem. I appreciate everyone's input, I've decided to ditch the inverter as suggested, and step up to a slightly larger battery. That's about all I can afford for now. The solar power however has reached my project board (dry erase board in my room covered in must study topics) so I'm gonna tear the subject up and learn what I can. Any prototypes I come with when money prohibits i'll post here and maybe we can expand this a little bit. Thanks again.

Craig
 

nanZor

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Warning - LONG solar post

Another GREAT forum for solar power needs is:
Solar Forum - Discussion Board on Solar Panels and Solar Power Products

One thing for sure - you don't get into hobby solar power to save money - you do it for other reasons (take your pick.) :) This is kind of (sorry - really long), so I don't know if this belongs in this thread or maybe in the DIY or Electronics subforum....

Admittedly, it can be overwhelming, but a great way to start is with a small project - like powering a scanner for 10 hours. What is the panel and battery size I need?

* The Pro-163 draws 600ma
* You want to power it for 10 hours before having to recharge with no load on it.
* Total current draw .600 amps * 10 hours = 6 amps total. But you DON'T want a 6ah battery!

Lets pick a battery. For simplicity and safety, I recommend an SLA DEEP-CYCLE sealed lead acid AGM (NOT Gell!). You can get these around the corner at RS if you want like the UB series. You can use them indoors, but like all batteries, do NOT charge them in a closed box. If you develop the solar habit, you'll be hunting down Concorde, Deka, Trojan, and Rolls-Surrette deep-cycle types - but the typical small SLA/AGM is fine for starters.

Here we want to develop a good habit of not drawing out more than 50% of the battery capacity. For one thing, it is good for cycle life. And, at a 50% DOD depth-of-discharge, you'll find the battery just a bit above 12 - 12.2 volts, which is convenient since some gear doesn't like going lower in voltage. If you want to take this measurement, do so when the battery is not being charged, nor has a load on it, AND has rested for at least 2 hours. Don't rely on shirt-pocket meters - get something a little more decent. :)

* This is a long way to say that a 12AH SLA-AGM battery will do - basically you are just doubling the total amount of current calculated above because of the 50% DOD requirement.

* What panel size would be appropriate? The SLA-AGM type battery can usually withstand a maximum charge rate of C/4. (but always check the manufacturer spec!) To avoid frustration and charge as quickly as possible, lets shoot for C/4. (Flooded wet-cells usually a max of C/8 to C/10 - but we're not covering those here.) You can go lower, but understand that it might take days to charge. A typical SOLAR day consists of only 4 hours, typically between 10am to 2pm despite it being light from 8am to 5pm at your location. This is called solar INSOLATION, basically meaning that these are the hours when your panel will actually do some real work. You can consult charts for your area and season. Pros usually design for the worst - wintertime etc, but we'll keep it simple for now. We're not factoring in going multiple days of rain or going solar in the Alaskan winter. :)

* A nominal 12V solar panel is actually about 18V or so measured open circuit. It has to be higher than the battery terminal voltage to work. Batteries under charge usually reach about 14.2 - 14.6 volts at the end of bulk charging, so the panel has to be at least 3-4 volts higher. So we'll use a standard panel of 18V to calculate our needs. Some panels are rated a little lower, and some go a bit higher. Once the charger is removed, the fully charged battery voltage drops quickly to about 13.3 volts, and then rests somewhere above 12.7 volts. But this is good enough for back-of-napkin engineering. If you DO end up trying to use your equipment AND charging at the same time, be SURE your gear can withstand 14.6 volts - but here we are just charging out in the backyard with no gear attached.

PIE-Chart time. (P=I*E) (watts = current * voltage)

Our 12ah battery can withstand a max charge rate of 12A/4, so we only need a panel of about 3amps.

18 volt panel * 3 amps = 54 watts. A 60-watt panel would do nicely. Check the Panel's IMP current rating - you might want to go a bit smaller like 50-55 amps to stay within the manufacturer's max current spec.

Because we are only using up 50% of the 12ah battery, and need to put 6amps back in, that means that this battery will reach the absorption stage (about 80% charge) in 2 hours. An additional 2 hours or more of lower-voltage absorption/float will be good to get it fully charged. So in the span of 4 hours, you've got a fully charged battery - assuming perfect conditions. A quality charge-controller will take care of automatically switching between bulk and absorption/float stage charging.

Got more time on your hands, more solar insolation hours, or want to keep within budget? Halve the current rating of the panel and get a 30 watt panel (about 1.6 amps)

You've GOT to have a charge controller to go between the panel and the battery. Quality types with temperature compensation like the Morningstar Sunguard 4.5a controller is a good way to do it right on a small scale, and only a tad more expensive than the cheaper on/off types. Spend a little more up front, and you won't have to buy things twice. Follow their instructions on which connections to make first, and don't accidentally short the controller's leads.

As always, be SAFE. Take your time around the connections, do not wear rings and jewelry and drop those across the terminals. Fuse the leads. There is so much more to discover with solar, and this is only a very simple project to whet the appetite while reading what the real pros have to say in the forums.
 
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DaveNF2G

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My need for a power inverter would be to run my laptop. From experience, a laptop trying to run off a car battery tends to drain the battery quickly, and to blow fuses in the car.

Does anyone have any reliable non-inverter-based systems for powering a mobile laptop?
 

Russell

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My need for a power inverter would be to run my laptop. From experience, a laptop trying to run off a car battery tends to drain the battery quickly, and to blow fuses in the car.

Does anyone have any reliable non-inverter-based systems for powering a mobile laptop?

I have used several 12V to 90W laptop power supplies. They still tend to use a bit more juice but not as much as a DC/AC inverter.

Try: LapTops for Less, Amazon, NewEgg. Even then original manufactures can supply or specify what you need. Most are 90W 18VAC - this of course, is an inverter itself, but will not draw near as much as a 12vdc to 120VAC inverter.

Russell
 

k3cfc

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I think i would get my car battery checked first. may be that it has seen better days. i left my icom on for 4 days and started my van just fine.

k3cfc
 
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