Statewide Wireless Network article

[davidd2957]

Consider This....

"The project is funded by the state wireless communications surcharge."

"However, Cowper said, the corporation will not receive any money until the project is complete and the state has inspected and is confident with it."

"The network will be a modern trunked radio system that will have 'all the bells and whistles,' according to Cowper."

"It will be able to transmit voice and data at the same time," he said. "Our coverage requirement is for 95-percent mobile coverage over the geographic environment and 97-percent coverage on all of the state's roadways. It will be highly reliable and public-safety grade."

"The network will also have the capability to automatically locate vehicles and to fully encrypt data transmissions."

To begin with the system is being paid for by that wireless communication(cell phone) Surcharge. This is a Large amount of $$$
MA/COM will not get a PENNY " until the project is complete and the state has inspected and is confident with it."
As far as Scannerablity is concerned "The network will be a modern trunked radio system that will have all the bells and whistles"
BUT..."The network will also have the capability to fully 'ENCRYPT' data transmissions."
Lets' hope that the State waits until this System is fully Operational for a LOONNGG Time before any Payments are made.
David D.

 

[PJH]

Money will exchange hands before the final acceptance test.

No matter how much anyone wants the business, they are not going to produce tens of millions of dollars for years (nevermind the engineering, support people etc) for free.

As certain things are done, they will receive cash. Read the contract carefully cover to cover. The posted contract does not include the anciallary agreements and the actual cost of the equipment, blah blah stuff. I haven't seen all of them, and I don't think they have been made available on the SWN site yet either. As each stage (large or small) passes its tests, MA/COM gets paid.

 

[Jammin_Jay]

According to a news broadacast on WWNY tv 7 in watertown, ny, The system is to be implemented by 2010, but optional for counties and locals in NY state. Not everyone can afford it, in their budget. Some esitmated costs were $2000 per radio.

 

[PJH]

$2000 (most likely more) per radio (and portables) sounds about right, but a little on the low side. Then factor in installation, accessories, batteries and any other options, and it usually works out to $3000+, but I haven't done MA/COM pricing in a long time...but definately $2k+ each.

Then you will most likely be looking at system cost of $xx.xx per radio per month to be on the system---unless NY is going to make the airtime free of cost (which I don't see the greedy NY lawmakers doing)

 

[APX8000]

Some Facts about the SWN

Well, I had the opportunity to sit in on a presentation given by the New York State Office for Technology and also had the opportunity to ask some questions. So, I’ll post what I know so far.

OFT expects the Statewide Wireless Network (SWN) to be available statewide by 2010. The contract is for 20 years. The system costs $6 billion.

The SWN will be available to first responders and public service agencies at the local, state and federal level. State agencies WILL be going to the system, whether they like it or not. Others will have the OPTION of using the system in three different partnership levels I’ll describe later.

Two teams will build the SWN simultaneously. One team will work from West to East while the second team will work from South to North. The build out order will be as follows:

West-East
1. Primary Regional Build (Erie, Chautauque)
2. Western Region (Niagara, Orleans, Genesee, Wyoming, Cattaragus, Allegany)
3. Finger Lakes South (Livingston, Yates, Steuben, Schuyler, Chemung, Tioga)
4. Finger Lakes North (Monroe, Wayne, Ontario, Seneca, Cayuga)
5. Northern Region (St. Lawrence, Franklin, Clinton, Essex, Warren, Hamilton, Herkimer)
6. North Central Region (Jeffersen, Lewis, Oswego, Oneida, Madison, Onondaga)

South-North
1. New York City (5 Boroughs/replacing Metro 21)
2. Long Island (Nassau, Suffolk)
3. Hudson East (Westchester, Dutchess, Putnam, Columbia)
4. Hudson West (Rockland, Orange, Ulster, Sullivan, Delaware Greene)
5. Capital Region (Fulton, Saratoga, Washington, Montgomery, Schenectady, Rensselaer, Schoharie, Albany)
6. South Central Region (Tompkins, Cortland, Chenango, Otsego, Broome)

The SWN coverage goal is 95% of the State’s geography and 97% of the State’s roadways. This is for MOBILE coverage.

Because of the state’s varied terrain, a combination of technologies will be utilized to attain this goal to include OpenSky, P25IP and Network First. M/A-COM’s VIDA Network (Voice, Interoperability, Data, Access) will be utilized.

OpenSky to be deployed statewide in the 700/800MHz bands using Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA). This allows up to 4 users to talk on the same channel at one time.

In the Adirondacks and Catskills, P25IP will be used with a VHF overlay. NetworkFirst will connect the OpenSky and P25IP using an IP based platform.

The initial installation will accommodate up to 65,000 users and 25,000 separate talkgroups at any given time and will support up to 250,000 individual pieces of equipment.

There are NO subscriber costs to local governments and first responders who voluntarily choose to join SWN at any partnership level. The 3 partnership levels are as follows:

Level 1 – Infrastructure Partners. Good for entities never wishing to access the SWN. They will share infrastructure with the State such as tower sites and shelters to minimize tower proliferation as well as share infrastructure costs. The local system will remain completely autonomous from the State and will not have access to the SWN.

Level 2 – Gateway Partners. Good for entities who recently upgraded their existing systems. They will have access to SWN when needed. They may share data and files with other SWN users when connected, share infrastructure with the State like above and achieve interoperability. However, because they have their own existing systems, they will still maintain full control.

Level 3 – Full Integration. Good for entities with limited frequency spectrums and with old antiquated systems. They will always be connected to the SWN for daily use, will maintain control over their own talkgroups, can add feature to their own systems, and all of the above as well, but they will not have control over the backbone network.

 

[APX8000]

Some responses to questions asked

End users will have to purchase their own equipment to access the SWN at a price that has not yet been determined but will be available under state contract. There will be 3 venders…M/A-COM, Kenwood and some Japanese company. So far, I have not seen Kenwood build a 700/800 MHz radio that is compatible with the system, but I was able to get a copy of the contract between M/A-COM and the State of Florida. For Jaguar portables you are looking at $3,500 per radio. Mobiles are in the $4,000 range. This does not include warranties, installation/labor, antennas/cables, etc. for both. And this is per radio. I can’t imagine many smaller departments having this amount of money. There will be options to lease equipment as well as lease with the option to buy. So, that NO cost to access the system may wind up being a monthly cost after all. I know many departments who lease radios currently and it is not cheap.

I know a lot of volunteer EMS agencies, like mine, who issue radios to each member. This is because of “all-call” requests, second calls in the district, MCI’s, etc. We currently use Motorola HT1250’s. If I recall, they are about $650 on state bid. So 30 active members at $650 a pop will cost $19,500. For the same price, I can buy 5 ½ Jaguar portables to work on the SWN. 30 members with radios or 5 members…hmmm. Oh, 30 radios at $3500 is $105,000. I could use that other $85,500 for equipment, training, fly-car, etc. But there is always grants. Ask New York City how much Homeland Security likes them.

Nobody makes a 700/800 MHz voice pager (like the Motorola Minitor) that is compatible with this system. So unless they set up patches for paging, you will have to upgrade to alpha-numeric type systems for Fire/EMS paging.

The contract is for 20 years. M/A-COM actually owns the system during that time, NOT the state. The state has the option to buy the system. Maintenance costs per year were unknown. Costs to maintain the system in the future is definitely unknown.

The system is set up for MOBILE coverage at 95% of geography and 97% of the roadways. Remember, this is mobile, outside, on the street coverage. This is not portable, in-building coverage, which a lot of systems are designed to meet and at a high percentage rate for officer safety. The locals have an option of increasing coverage in their areas by adding on to the system, but at the locals cost. So if XYZ town want coverage so Officer’s radios will work inside a house when on the scene of a domestic dispute, XYZ agency will have to build that backbone into the system. So, for an agency to become a full level three user, you better be prepared to spend money if you don’t want your people getting hurt. To the employees of state agencies like our State Troopers, who are the primary responding agency in a lot of areas of the state, I hope your portable works inside that house on that domestic at 95% mobile street coverage. It was mentioned that in-vehicle repeaters may have to be utilized for increased portable coverage. Building systems so you have to use in-vehicle repeaters? What about those volunteer firefighters and ambulance workers? I guess I’ll leave my car running in the driveway with the R.I.C.K. or Pyramid on.

The system will allow roaming. So if you leave your home area and go to another part of the state, you will still be able to talk back to your home area. The system calls for 99.99999 percent reliability. This means 99.99999 percent of the time when I key up my radio I will not get a busy signal. At each site will be numerous frequencies. Here’s the problem with allowing free roaming everywhere. I set my radio on talkgroup A for my home agency and roam to another area of the state. In order for me to hear that talkgroup, I will make busy one frequency at the away from home site. Lets say someone from another department comes to that same away from home area and wants to listen to his home talkgroup B. He will make busy that frequency in that away from home area. So the users of that tower will have two less frequencies available for use in their home area because two roamers are tying up two frequencies. With the amount of us volunteers in the state who love to listen to what goes on at home, I could see a potential problem with free roaming.

The system with be comprised of high-profile towers like the ones you see on mountains and low-profile sites like those “cell-type” sights you see on telephone poles for those hard to cover areas. The high profile will account for 90 % of the mobile coverage area. OK…tones go off, Motor Vehicle Accident, car vs. pole…you respond, well guess what doesn’t work because the car took out the pole with the cell site. And you won’t reach that high-profile site because that’s the reason why that cell site is there. Oh, and the cell sites are battery back-up. Power failure…how long do the batteries last before you lose the site.

Don’t think that M/A-COM is building this whole thing for free and then getting paid when the state decides to accept it. Read the contract. They will be getting paid as the state accepts regions.

I can see the logic of sharing infrastructure such as towers and shelters. Why built a tower right down the road from one. I can see the logic for interoperability. But I see a lot of flaws too. The system is not for everyone and the state knows that. Be sure to be active in your department, town, county, etc, to make sure you are not stuck with something that does not work for you. I could sit here and type for hours, but I think I gave my .02.

 

[SCANdal]

Sitting collecting dust back at the barracks...

To the employees of state agencies like our State Troopers, who are the primary responding agency in a lot of areas of the state, I hope your portable works inside that house on that domestic at 95% mobile street coverage.

e911,

A great many Troopers don't carry portables radios at present. Since many don't carry portables, I'd think the loss of coverage inside a building with this new system would be something they'd be "conditioned" to deal with already.

SCANdal

 

[DaveNF2G]

Take a close look at Level 1 participation, then tell me how this system is "interoperable".
This has been one of my major objections to SWN from the start - no matter how M/A-Com and OFT juggle the semantics, the system will never provide full interoperability. For starters, there has to be a mandate for every agency to have access to the system. If anyone can opt out, then the network is not fully interoperable.

SWN's primary purpose, and the only one that it has a chance of achieving completely, is secrecy of communications for the New York State Police.

 

[N_Jay]

Take a close look at Level 1 participation, then tell me how this system is "interoperable".
This has been one of my major objections to SWN from the start - no matter how M/A-Com and OFT juggle the semantics, the system will never provide full interoperability. For starters, there has to be a mandate for every agency to have access to the system. If anyone can opt out, then the network is not fully interoperable.

I would bet the "NetworkFirst" system links most existing mutual aid frequencies, and that is how interoperability is provided.

But as long as you want to believe

SWN's primary purpose, and the only one that it has a chance of achieving completely, is secrecy of communications for the New York State Police.

Then you will be blind to any information that disagrees with your thinking.

 

[DaveNF2G]

N_Jay, you mistake me for a non-expert with an axe to grind. Wrong on both counts.

 

[N_Jay]

N_Jay, you mistake me for a non-expert with an axe to grind. Wrong on both counts.

Are you saying that you know that mutual aid and other inter-operation channels are NOT tied into the NetworkFirst System?

If they want secrecy so bad, then why is the VHF portion P25 when it could have been ProVoice?

 

[DaveNF2G]

I am also aware of some things about NYSP and the process that led to this system. The only state agency that really wants this system is NYSP. Since the 1930s, the NYSP have been twitchy about the fact that anyone can hear their radio traffic. More recently (and pre-9/11), the attitude has become institutionalized and nearly paranoid.

That's only the surface. I have other info from confidential State sources, as well as several matters of public record, indicating that the NYSP is the driving force behind SWN and that the prime directive is secrecy once it's up and running. "Interoperability" is a magic word that opens wallets.

Also note that the State has not solicited any federal funding. They don't have to have a system that complies with any DHS or NCS standards because New York's taxpayers are bearing the full cost. This is also deliberate.

There's a lot more, but I'm not giving up confidential resources or doing anyone else's research for them. I am convinced, by facts, that NYSP is being handed a secret radio network and everyone else will be steamrollered in or left out.

"Mutual aid channels" are only interoperable if agencies have access to them. That's what the State should be spending our money on.

 

[N_Jay]

I am also aware of some things about NYSP and the process that led to this system. The only state agency that really wants this system is NYSP. . . .. . I am convinced, by facts, that NYSP is being handed a secret radio network and everyone else will be steamrollered in or left out.

"Mutual aid channels" are only interoperable if agencies have access to them. That's what the State should be spending our money on.

You may be right about the desire for secrecy, but I still caution to allowing that to color your view. (Back to the Pro-Voice vs. P25 example)

As for mutual aid channels, if the locals have not implemented then in their vehicles and dispatch centers, shame on them!

These issues are rarely as back and white as they get presented in forum like this.

 

[Rusty52]

Does this account for what Monroe County is doing?

 

[52to12]

What is APA?

Hi! I lived in N.Y.state until 2000. Never heard of APA. Is this an environmental group or some agency? Can someone enlighten me. Thanks

 

[N_Jay]

Hi! I lived in N.Y.state until 2000. Never heard of APA. Is this an environmental group or some agency? Can someone enlighten me. Thanks

http://www.apa.state.ny.us/

 

[MB]

If they want secrecy so bad, then why is the VHF portion P25 when it could have been ProVoice?

Good question..

I presume you will be able to monitor the P25 VHF portion of the NYSP communications with one of the new digital scanners. Am I correct?

However, they could have encrypted P25 VHF channels also.

Most of the Troopers I know don't care that most of their transmissions are heard by others. When they do have something sensitive in nature to say they usually use their cell phones.

 

[MB]

e911god, DaveNF2G, N Jay and others,

Thanks for all the good information.

What I want to know is what are the small town EMS, Firefighters, Police agencies and Sheriff's Departments going to do when there is an incident? In a lot of areas the NYSP are the first and primary responders to incidents. Since these agencies probably will not have the money to get into the system how are they going to be able to monitor NYSP communications? Right now they have NYSP frequencies programmed into their radios and scanners. How will they do this with OpenSky? Is M/A-COM going to make receive only radios available to these agencies?

What about the local P.D.s and Sheriff's Depts.? Now they can monitor NYSP communications and talk with NYSP on Car to Car (154.665 PL 110.9), TAC (155.565 PL 79.7) and Interagency (155.370 CSQ). What are they going to do when OpenSky moves in? Will they be able to patch a conventional system with an OpenSky system in a matter of seconds? In this line of work time means everything - it could be a matter of life or death! How will the local Police agencies be able to know what the NYSP are doing if they don't have OpenSky?

If anything I think this new SWN will hinder "Interoperability" and just make things more difficult and dangerous for the small agencies.

 

[PJH]

When its all said and done, there will be various links between the troops and local agencies. For instance, Car/Car can have a full time patch between it and a talkgroup. Patches like this are seamless. This was already addressed in the system specs. This is also not anything major or out of the ordnary and is done on many systems (Motorola and MA/COM) on a routine basis. Looking at some of the stuff, there will be plenty of patches and links thougout the system.

Looking at the map the other day, the Catskill Parks (in the VERY remote areas in Sullivan/Delawre/Ulster) and the Anrondaicks are getting the VHF. If you haven't been there, most of the areas are one road in and out. Deliverance country. There isn't much of a police presence to begin with. Hell, you cannot even get a FM or AM station in the Sullivan/Ulster areas of the park.

The state is hoping for a large commitment from local/county agencies to sign up for the system - which would make it much more intergrated. I have my doubts on the particapation level, but you never know. Its really going to depend on what the state is able to come up with for reoccuring and equipment costs to the muncipalities.

 

[MB]

When its all said and done, there will be various links between the troops and local agencies. For instance, Car/Car can have a full time patch between it and a talkgroup. Patches like this are seamless. This was already addressed in the system specs. This is also not anything major or out of the ordnary and is done on many systems (Motorola and MA/COM) on a routine basis. Looking at some of the stuff, there will be plenty of patches and links thougout the system.

Looking at the map the other day, the Catskill Parks (in the VERY remote areas in Sullivan/Delawre/Ulster) and the Anrondaicks are getting the VHF. If you haven't been there, most of the areas are one road in and out. Deliverance country. There isn't much of a police presence to begin with. Hell, you cannot even get a FM or AM station in the Sullivan/Ulster areas of the park.

The state is hoping for a large commitment from local/county agencies to sign up for the system - which would make it much more intergrated. I have my doubts on the particapation level, but you never know. Its really going to depend on what the state is able to come up with for reoccuring and equipment costs to the muncipalities.

Well, that is good to hear about the full time patches..

I actually live in the Adirondacks, so I know what it is all about. Believe me, there is more of a Police presence then you think - between the NYSP, Sheriffs, local P.D.s and ENCON.

I doubt they will be getting a large commitment in the Adirondacks from Essex County. Essex County is in the process of building its own Motorola P25 VHF-hi digital system.

So what about the small agencies, how are they going to be able to monitor the NYSP or other state agencies if they do not have OpenSky radios?

Will the new digital scanners be able to monitor the P25IP VHF overlay in the Adirondacks and Catskills?