Streaming w/ delay for first responder safety
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MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
There is no "right to know" in real time. The public doesn't have access to all courtroom proceedings in real time, and in fact, in sensitive cases (child molestation, sex crimes, high profile subjects), the public is excluded from proceedings as they happen. There is some merit to the argument that real time access to everything can cause harm to innocent parties. Open records requests can reveal anything in question.
I am not advocating encryption, but it's a fact of life that many are going to find will be coming down the pike sooner than you may think. With the push by the FCC to narrowband, radio vendors are in high gear pushing relatively inexpensive digital radio systems (i.e. MotoTRBO and NXDN) that offer very affordable encryption options. Software encryption on Astro 25 costs less than 10 dollars a radio if you place a large order, and managing keys is no more headache than ordinary radio programming, as no special key loading devices or boards are needed.
The only disadvantage to encryption is the fact that there are so many incompatible formats and this locks out mutual aid responders from nearby jurisdictions from monitoring talkgroups/channels if their radios do not support the encryption utilized. Using the Astro 25 ADP example, a system that uses ADP (like Walton County, GA) prevents neighboring jurisdictions from talking on their Astro 25 system on said talkgroups with a Kenwood TK-5410 (as it doesn't support Astro 25 proprietary features). This limits and hinders interoperability, which is the whole selling point the Federal government, APCO and radio vendors have been cramming down our throats since 9/11.
Creating a delay in feed audio isn't a viable solution, the bottom line is a few isolated turds in the punch bowl have brought attention the availability of radio traffic on the Internet. The widely uneducated general public become SHOCKED that police radio is not private like "their cellphone calls are" and with some creative propaganda by their local officials who want to operate behind closed doors, and will convince their taxbase to pony up funds to replace perfectly functioning radio systems with new ones. All the time ignoring the needs of the actual users. With the FCC narrowband mandate just around the corner look for more of this to go into high gear, even in small towns and cities where such expensive replacements aren't needed or desired.
"They told us we need to buy digital radios because the FCC will turn us off in 2013 like the analog TV switch" and "We had to buy encryption because that's the only way the sell them"- these are actual quotes from Georgia public safety officials I heard at a state interoperability exercise in April.
the days of scanning may soon go the way of 8-track tapes and VCR's. It's happened in other places, ask anyone how much fun listening to scanner radios in the UK are since the Airwave system was brought online.
While I am not a supporter of delays or encryption, I am completely insulted by this statement. I am an EMT who works for the largest third service municipal EMS agency in New England, and I can attest it's not just the cops (when they actually show up to our calls) that have a vested interest in responder safety. Wrestle with one EDP who wants to kill you simply because you're in a uniform, and I'm sure you'll agree.
Police officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looking here at occupational hazards, I dont see any mention of "officer safety and scanner feeds"
Looking here at occupational hazards, I dont see any mention of "officer safety and scanner feeds"
Once again, it's all about the cops.
Of course, now that you pointed out that it doesn't exist on Wikipedia A WEBSITE THAT CAN BE EDITED BY ANYONE WITH A WEB BROWSER I'm sure someone will add it, which of course, leads to the belief of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true. Nice going.
Just curious how feed delays would change that?
Where did I say it would? I was just expressing my outrage at another poster's inferrence that it's all about the police. There are other responders out there who put their lives on the line, and they deserve just as much recognition. Where I work, the police tend not to go to calls, with either the dispatcher holding the call until it goes away, or the assigned unit never arriving on scene-kinda pisses one off to see them sensationalized.
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n5ims
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What good would any feed delay do for that Emotionally Disturbed Person that wanted "to kill you simply because you're in a uniform"? They most likely wouldn't simply wait around listening to a feed on their iPhone waiting for someone in uniform to show up. They'd probably simply call 911 and report some kind of incident to get the PD & FD to come to their location. If they preferred a more "random" location they'd probably simply listen for the sirens and go to that location to start their trouble.
Where a feed delay may be of some use is in a "burglary in progress" call where the suspect might get word of the PD in route to their location, giving them advanced notice for them to flee. The issue there is that with an internet feed, there's already some delay, although not all that long. With that type of a call they're already planning to get out quickly so the feed really isn't that much help to them. Also with most feeds, the suspect has as much chance of getting some other channel's traffic as they are getting the dispatch to their address.
In incidents where there's real danger (hostage or other SWAT type of activity) the RR feed policy of "no dedicated SWAT, Tactical, Vice, Narcotics, etc. channels/talkgroups can be feed" handles that in many cases. In cases where that traffic is handled on the normally authorized channels/talkgroups due to the agency not moving to their dedicated channel(s), or possibly that they're small enough to not have dedicated channels, many of the feed providers opt to lock out than channel for the duration of the incident (as indicated by this thread http://forums.radioreference.com/live-audio-administration/217282-worried-about-tos-violation.html).
n5ims
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It's not just the PD or even other responders that "put their lives on the line" while doing their jobs. Even utility meter readers get their share of danger, including getting shot at. Meter-reader shot by fearful homeowner | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth
Like I said, doesn't make a difference in my neck of the woods. "In progress" means nothing to the cops. I've ended up in situations that I shouldn't have been in because the police either didn't show up, or made it an EMS call to make it go away, and put a dangerous person in the back of my truck, "because it's obviously a medical condition", and then didn't even follow us to the hospital. A delay applied to a system that already delays their responses does nothing. As far as the meter reader, I didn't read the link, but as an employee of a private company who is most likely viewed as a trespasser, it's apples and oranges.
I'm in the same union as the cops.....should give you an idea how big this issue is.
When it comes to feed delays, that's the only group I've heard it mentioned about. That's why your response was confusing to me. No biggie.
KE7IZL
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If they don't want others to hear it then they'lll use encryption. If it's safe for others to hear then they'll use clear audio. The rule about what you hear on scanner you can't tell anyone else means just that, you can't listen to the audio then tell others. But there's nothing prohibiting you from broadcasting the audio itself over live internet stream.
I am in public safety and purposely do not provide police feeds in my area because of the increase in use by smart phones. If people had to be next to a computer to listen then it would be fine but any joe blow can pull up a live feed and listen on their phone. A feed delay for police needs to be implemented on the client side or I see agencies going to encrypted radio traffic.
I'm sure some of the people out there use their phones for nefarious purposes. But let's put this in perspective. Most dispatch systems have 10 codes, signals, unit designations, and some are more complicated than that. The average [dumb] criminal is not going to take the time to learn all that stuff.
I am friends with a couple local police officers and I know for a fact they've caught a few people that were listening to my feed. That in and of itself ought to show that it's really not that useful--if they were caught, it didn't do any good for them. My friends were also not concerned I was streaming dispatch channels.
There's also a delay of 15+ seconds when you're listening through RR. That's an eternity if someone's trying to find you on foot or in a car.
What's the point of listening to a feed that's delayed anyway? I don't see that being particularly fun or useful.
Edit: I think forcing people to get RR accounts to use apps that use the api would make sense and cut down on this some.
I am friends with a couple local police officers and I know for a fact they've caught a few people that were listening to my feed. That in and of itself ought to show that it's really not that useful--if they were caught, it didn't do any good for them. My friends were also not concerned I was streaming dispatch channels.
There's also a delay of 15+ seconds when you're listening through RR. That's an eternity if someone's trying to find you on foot or in a car.
What's the point of listening to a feed that's delayed anyway? I don't see that being particularly fun or useful.
Edit: I think forcing people to get RR accounts to use apps that use the api would make sense and cut down on this some.
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I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again.
How many feeds actually sit on ONE DEDICATED CHANNEL?
With that in mind, gee it sure would be hard for the "bad guys" to track what was going on, given that they have no control over holding a scanner feed on one particular frequency/talkgroup. Sure, they might get bits and pieces but in most cases they won't be monitoring the entire conversation.
While it doesn't ruin my day to have the existing delay, and wouldn't if there was one of a few minutes, this is really much adieu about nothing in most cases.
How many feeds actually sit on ONE DEDICATED CHANNEL?
With that in mind, gee it sure would be hard for the "bad guys" to track what was going on, given that they have no control over holding a scanner feed on one particular frequency/talkgroup. Sure, they might get bits and pieces but in most cases they won't be monitoring the entire conversation.
While it doesn't ruin my day to have the existing delay, and wouldn't if there was one of a few minutes, this is really much adieu about nothing in most cases.
http://forums.radioreference.com/ma...ruling-against-boston-police.html#post1603049
You might want to take a peek at this item - it involves the fundamental right of the public to keep tabs on government activities
You might want to take a peek at this item - it involves the fundamental right of the public to keep tabs on government activities
It does, but it has nothing to do with scanning or streaming. So doesn't really apply at all.
I'll take it you never had a feed where they "clear the air" meaning they put out an audible tone to remind people to not talk on the radio. With a delay (impossible to follow 4 very busy channels without one), it will sit on that one channel until the air is no longer cleared. I realize most people don't need a delay and would like to complain that one isn't needed, but that still isn't the point of this thread. The point is to try to get a feature, not say one isn't needed!
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