Submitting information

[Saint]

:?:
Hello, Blantonl,
I know this has come up before but is there a possibility that in the future you will be putting the names of people who are submitting information on trunked systems if they would agree to this at the bottom of the submitted information. Why I ask is I submit information on several trunked systems and though it would be helpful if I new who else was submitting info on the same trunked systems. This way we may be able to converse with the people and work together on the same trunked systems and share information between us before we submit the information. I think this would go a long way in working together on the same systems and being able to submit more information.
Steve

 

[DaveH]

Steve,

That would be Lindsay, the proprietor of this fine shoppe you would be addressing.

I agree. The contributors at the bottom of each page were dropped. I think this should be re-instated. It is a not a big-ego thing, just an acknowledgement for the hard work that many people put into finding new info.

Personally, I can confirm that it can be a long process positively IDing frequencies, systems and talkgroups. The other day I just positively IDed a towing company, after having listened to it on and off for over a year (they're a good source of road conditions...).

Some system/TG info is so extensive and precisely-worded that I can only conclude it came from an "inside" source. If those people (or any others) wish to remain anonymous, that's fine. That leaves the rest of us.

Lindsay, I hope you'll take this into consideration.

In any case, best of the New Year to all!

Dave

 

[Guest]

I am submitting this as a guest because I have a concern about blanket listing of contributi\ors. I agree it is a welcome (in most cases) validation of the hard work that goes into making positive identification of frequencies and talkgroups; but for some of us it could present a real problem. Please, prior to listing contributors, make sure each person who contributes can be listed without some kind of retribution. I, for one, will forgo the public validation in hopes that the admins will look at my submissions and know they are as accurate as I can make them for the better of this outstanding resource.

 

[Saint]

re-submitting info


Hi Dave I agree It is a not a big-ego thing, I submit info on 5 or 6 systems on the site and just think if I new who was submitting info on the same systems we could all work together and make it easier for every one, I just love this site I now don't have to go to several sites to find info and a lot of the sites are not updated, a real time saver. But if it can't be done that's ok, I like spending the time submitting info, It makes me feel that I'm part of a great site and helping a lot of people, I hope I did not open a Pandora’s box by my suggestion. any way to everyone have a great new year.
Steve

 

[Saint]

re-submitting info

I am submitting this as a guest because I have a concern about blanket listing of contributi\ors. I agree it is a welcome (in most cases) validation of the hard work that goes into making positive identification of frequencies and talkgroups; but for some of us it could present a real problem. Please, prior to listing contributors, make sure each person who contributes can be listed without some kind of retribution. I, for one, will forgo the public validation in hopes that the admins will look at my submissions and know they are as accurate as I can make them for the better of this outstanding resource.

I really don't think it will be any problem, it says at the bottom of the submit page your sumitting your infomation on that if you don't want to have your name seen for your submissions then that's ok, All you do is opt out of this, I really don't see a problem, very simple thing to do, unless I am missing something. I can't think of a person on this list who want's to get anyone in trouble. But if this is going to get people upset then I will say right now I take back my sugestion.
Steve

 

[fmon]

Folks, in your profile, find this option:
Allow users to email me through the forums. You can check yes or no.

If no is checked, one can not fully utilize this forum.

If yes is checked, you may receive messages from other submitters whining that they don't like your "overruling" their submission.

Some members hassle others outside of public listings. The note posted by guest hints of this possibility and I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Guest]

At this point I am not submitting anonymously--checking the box below the submission form. The admin staff may know--should know who I am, I just don't want to be identified publicly. fmon hit upon a problem I have had a few times recently but my bigger concern is that I be identified to a larger audience. Lindsay knows what the problem is with public disclosure--I sent him a pm earlier this month voicing some of this concern. I received an email from someone using a generic hotmail account concerned that I was "giving away trade secrets" and that I was being disloyal. I have tried NOT to hide but am finding the very few "flakes" who visit here have made my life somewhat interesting of late.
I will remain loyal to this website because the founders have assembled an awesome reference source that is reliable enough that I have no questions plugging frequencies into my scanner and running to an area I have not visited. Before the names of contributors are given to anyone but someone on the admin staff they should be asked if they mind. I might be barking up a tree after an imaginary fox, but then again i might not be--and can ill-afford to find the answer.

 

[loumaag]

I am pretty sure Lindsay took into consideration that sometimes a person, who did not want their name used, accidently became known. There is still the box on the submissions form about wishing to remain anonymous so that if Lindsay ever reverses the policy you can still remain anonymous. My opinon is that if you want to discuss such matters, go to your state forum, say, "I want to discuss such-an-such TRS" and do so there, that is what the forums are for.

The one thing I would recommend all submitters do, is leave your user name in the box. If you erase it and there is some question an administrator has on the submission it is basically ignored as there is no way to find out what the submitter was trying to put across. The only people who can see a submission are administrators, they are not made public.

 

[DaveH]

The fact remains, those who contribute cash are acknowledged, on every message posted, but those who contribute information are not (that I am aware). To put a different angle on it, how much info could be "purchased" (legitimately) with money contributed? Not much I think.

I search out new info for the fun of it, the challenge, and that it might benefit others, not to get my name in lights. But I've said this before, lack of acknowledgement for submisssions is a big disincentive to making submissions.

Dave

 

[loumaag]

I search out new info for the fun of it, the challenge, and that it might benefit others, not to get my name in lights. But I've said this before, lack of acknowledgement for submisssions is a big disincentive to making submissions.

Dave,
As one of the guys who processes those submissions, I must tell you that a lot of the information in the DB comes from people who don't want acknowledgement. A good bit from people, who if they were known, would get into trouble. There was a guy in New Mexico who innocently posted something in the NM Forum and two days later was fired! The point I am trying to make is that in the past, people who didn't want to be known as submitters were mistakenly given credit for their submissions (back in the TrunkedRadioNet days), this caused them grief. Lindsay decided not to continue the practice when the conversion to RadioReference was made, a decision I supported for just that reason. You yourself say you do it so that it might benefit others, so acknowledgement doesn't seem necessary in your case. However, it seems that perhaps some acknowledgement might be worked for major submitters of quality data if they wanted it and they released the site from any liability for such acknowledgement.

 

[mciupa]

... perhaps some acknowledgement might be worked for ( submitters) of ( data) if they wanted it and they released the site from any liability for such acknowledgement.

As a member who has benefitted from Dave H's and Saint's Canadian submissions, I sincerely hope that this comprimise for credit is allowed. I think it merits consideration.

Thanks guys for your submissions.

 

[Saint]

submitting info

:?:
Guy’s I really don’t now how Blantonl runs this board but hypothetically if I was to send in information on lets say talk wireless trunked system in Ontario Canada or any othe trunked system for that matter, and requested that my name be but at the bottom of the list as a contributor I really don’t see how this is going to effect anyone else, how if a person sends in a request that comes from his/hers email address can this effect anyone on the list who does not want his/her name made public. There are many ways to do this, I just pointed out one.
Steve

 

[DaveH]

Lou,

Much as I respect people's views, that people don't need (or want)
acknowledgement for their hard work because of a small number
of people who may (in some cases appear to) have exercised poor
judgement, or through some weakness in the submission process,
is one I cannot agree with.

I don't know the circumstances of the person who got fired, or whether
it was just, or if it was related to "leaking" sensitive information, but one
takes one's chances. Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly for freedom of
information, something that's been suffering more and more over time, in
your country and mine and other democratic nations. For such submissions,
people maybe need to find a more truly anonymous way to submit, such
as through a third party, or perhaps not submit in some cases. I don't
work for military, law enforcement, sensitive gov't agency etc. but still
refrain from submitting data about my employer (what little I have found,
quite independently); that is up to the individual.

There are other unrelated "secondary" database issues, mostly form
as opposed to content which I have been hesitant to raise until now,
such as:

- Ottawa (where I live) is not a "county" in the "state" of Ontario.
- non-US stations do not have FCC Callsigns.
- SMR is a FCC-specific term (I believe) not a generic one.
- etc.

I hope you don't dismiss this as frivolous, or god forbid, anti-American.
If the TRS DB is to be truly international in representing countries outside
the US, one template does not fit all. It is also a matter of accuracy. I am
willing to help with the geography thing, but have the impression it is
viewed as unimportant; please correct me if this is not so.

This database is an amazing resource, but let's not forget in the end
what it comes down to is people and human nature.

Dave

 

[blantonl]

Hi Folks! This is an excellent suggestion and we should obviously recognize folks that submit data to the site.

I am reluctant to add submitters to individual pieces of data, because it has caused quite a few headaches for folks with their jobs etc. That was the intention of removing the data from the pages, because I started getting contacted by a LOT of folks asking me to remove their submitter information.

Let me review with the admins some good suggestions for how we can recognize submitters, and we'll go from there.

Expect a fup from me soon on this.

Thanks!

Lindsay

 

[Guest]

Gee boss, I sure hope fup = follow up :lol:

JK

 

[loumaag]

Dave, I will try and address each issue independently; hopefully I can clear up any misdunderstandings you may have.

Much as I respect people's views, that people don't need (or want) acknowledgement for their hard work because of a small number of people who may (in some cases appear to) have exercised poor judgement, or through some weakness in the submission process,
is one I cannot agree with.

The problem with submission acknowledgement (under the old TRN system) was that by accident, someone would be added as a contributor to a certain system, when they did not want to. This ended up being a liablilty issue. The blame clearly rested with whoever added them in contrivention to the request, but that doesn't change the outcome. So, if there is no way we can add a contributor, such liability issues go away. When RR.com was being beta tested, late summer and fall of 2003, this lack of contributor acknowlegement was noticed and questioned. The bottom line is that there were more important things to worry about getting the new site up and running than dealing with how to acknowledge contributions. It was put on the back burner at the time and has yet to be resolved. I will add that this thread prompted me to raise the issue again with the other administrators and Lindsay. Just be patient and let's see what happens.

I don't know the circumstances of the person who got fired, or whether it was just, or if it was related to "leaking" sensitive information, but one takes one's chances. Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly for freedom of information, something that's been suffering more and more over time, in your country and mine and other democratic nations. For such submissions, people maybe need to find a more truly anonymous way to submit, such as through a third party, or perhaps not submit in some cases. I don't work for military, law enforcement, sensitive gov't agency etc. but still refrain from submitting data about my employer (what little I have found, quite independently); that is up to the individual.

Having lived in New Mexico for a time, I often read the NM Forum, just to see what is up. I read the entries which caused the problem; understand, this individual did not submit information for database inclusion, he/she just answered a question posted in the forum and in doing so verified some information which was suspected anyway. The next day, he/she was called to task at work and the information was edited out of the forum (by the individual who posted it). Apparently that was not good enough for the next thing we learned was that the person had been fired. I told that story so that you could understand what an accidental exposure could do to an individual, or that an innocent submission can be used to put pressure on an employee, even if the data was already publicly known. A good example of this was what happened to the DrSm0ke.net site a couple of years ago (see this web page for a short explanation) and the trouble he was caused despite the fact he was revealing nothing from his work related data.

There are other unrelated "secondary" database issues, mostly form as opposed to content which I have been hesitant to raise until now, such as:
- Ottawa (where I live) is not a "county" in the "state" of Ontario.
- non-US stations do not have FCC Callsigns.
- SMR is a FCC-specific term (I believe) not a generic one.
- etc.

I hope you don't dismiss this as frivolous, or god forbid, anti-American. If the TRS DB is to be truly international in representing countries outside the US, one template does not fit all. It is also a matter of accuracy. I am
willing to help with the geography thing, but have the impression it is viewed as unimportant; please correct me if this is not so.

The issues you bring up in refernece to the county/state and not fitting everywhere is well known. One of the problems specific to Canada is that in Canada, each province seems to have it's own way of naming further political subdivisons. At the present time, the best that can be done and still allow data to be sub-divided is to call major sub-divisons counties. BTW, I think if you look, you will notice that although Ottawa is listed as a county, it is listed as in the Province of Ontario (not state).

As for non-US stations not having FCC call signs, this is true, but they do have call-signs and licenses. The fact in Canada this is not public information is not the site's (RR) fault; I am a little confused as to what this has to do with your comment though. Is there some reference to "FCC" on the Ottawa page?

As to the SMR comment, SMR means the same thing in Canada as it does in the US, that is Specialized Mobile Radio. The fact the the FCC uses it as a regulatory term is irrelevant, see: http://www.canada.com/mobile/glossary/index.html for the definition in Canada.

And finally, no, I don't think you are being anti-American, first you are an American also. However, of the 59 (current) DB administrators, including Lindsay, I think only four are from Canada. There are couple of more international administrators dealing with other countries, but the bottom line is that we do the best that we can.

This database is an amazing resource, but let's not forget in the end what it comes down to is people and human nature.

With this, I will agree with whole-heartedly! 8)

 

[loumaag]

:lol: Well I see while I was typing that loooonnnggg response, Lindsay has weighed in. :lol:

 

[blantonl]

Ok, how's this: Top 100 Conventional, and Top 50 Trunked Information Contributors:

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Submitters

Check out where you rank.

This is a start...

-Lb

 

[blantonl]

Lou, in the time that you wrote that reponse, I wrote that module.

You need to type faster, and I obviously need to drink more beer when developing, because I've been drinking beer all afternoon (so much for my New Years resolution...... 2 whole days!)

-Lb

 

[loumaag]

Edited out.