Testing reveals why my 536 so often stops with no audio and then resumes

[Jay911]

The sole difference b/w my 0.3 second response time and my 1.5 second response time was that the card had a lot of audio files. And mine wasn't full; it had about the same amount as yours (about 3 gb). (And it's one of the red/gray SanDisk cards, too.) I have two [theoretically] identical cards ordered at the same time. They appeared genuine. I'll try the other one and report back. Perhaps I got a bad card, or a bad batch of them, or the card's free space had become badly fragmented. Or... :wink:

I had to power cycle my radio tonight after having left it on and recording since I previously mentioned it in this thread. When I powered it off, "Writing to SD Card / Please Wait..." stayed on the screen for a good 5 seconds. When I activated recording again after powering it back on, it took about 5 more seconds after hitting E to the "Recording Started" screen before the screen changed back to the normal "scanning" operation. The keypresses, however, aren't appreciably affected. When I hit Avoid on an active channel, for example, it makes the two-stage beep and displays the avoid message instantly.

I have no clue how much data is on the card at this time. I'm packing it in for the night now and I'll check in the AM.

 

[redburgundy]

That is a good question. When you go FL, system and then department clicking on each department shows the audio type for each TG but once you enter the edit FL screen that disappears from it as an option.

I can't find out how to do it in Sentinal.

As far as I can tell, Audio Type can be changed for Motorola systems but not for P25 systems.

 

[Jay911]

As far as I can tell, Audio Type can be changed for Motorola systems but not for P25 systems.

That makes sense, since P25 systems are purely digital; changing the audio type to Analog wouldn't have a point.

 

[Meskoman]

That is a good question. When you go FL, system and then department clicking on each department shows the audio type for each TG but once you enter the edit FL screen that disappears from it as an option.

I can't find out how to do it in Sentinal.

I noticed and changed mine in ARC436 where it was real easy to do. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in with more directions but right now I'm just not seeing it.

Sorry I didn't think to check all platforms before posting. I don't understand why its not showing up as an option to edit in Sentinal.

I see it now. Right in front of my face in the edit Duh. Working on computers all day get the eyes tired and lazy sometimes!

 

[shonc182]

I was interested in the original post by wm8s since my experience has been very similar.

In the spirit of "I have tried everything else...", I copied the recordings from my 536 from the scanner to my hard drive - there was 30MB on the stock memory card. I then manually deleted each of the recordings through the scanner, powered cycled the unit and started to test for improvement.

There was an immediate and vast improvement on both of the Motorola II analog systems that I primarily monitor. Instead of missing the first part (.5 to 2 sec) of approximately 75% of transmissions compared to the old 785D, I was capturing almost everything that the old scanner was. The responsiveness of the buttons seems much better, too.

How could this be? I have no understanding of the inner workings of this, or any scanner - but on the surface it seems odd to me that I could make this sort of improvement by just freeing up some memory that isn't accessed as a part of the scanning. One more experiment....

Over the next day or so, I began making more recordings. I just created some random recordings - recording from just a few minutes to as much as 2 hours. I can verify that performance is slower while recording and seemed to get worse as I used more memory. By the time I had 196MB on the memory card, the reception was really starting to suffer vs the old 785D - It never did get as bad as it was prior to deleting the first 30MB, but definitely cutting off the first part of many transmissions and missing others. Button response became sluggish, but again not to the original level.

I followed the same procedure as above - copied recordings to hard drive, manually deleted from the scanner, and power cycle.

Again, major improvement. I would put the current performance at about 95%, but considering where it was this is a major win. I can't explain it, but this certainly worked for me.

 

[LIScanner101]

Well, from all this it most CERTAINLY seems that these new scanners DO access the microSD card during normal scanning. I don't necessarily see that as an issue, but I guess it causes the scanner to be at the mercy of the "access speed" (for lack of a better way of describing it) of the card you choose...???

Since from what I've read the actual database files are very small it's not likely that even the biggest scannerhead is going to fill up a card with database files. However, audio recordings are ALWAYS huge, so it seems the culprit has been found. I see no work-around here aside just keeping your microSD card as clear as possible.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

As far as I can tell, Audio Type can be changed for Motorola systems but not for P25 systems.

You know what you and Jay said makes sense although I never thought of it that way.

The thing is in ARC436/536 when clicking on the department within a system which is the TGs that software shows an "Audio Type" amongst the categories across the top of the screen.

When I checked it had "All" listed on each TG for audio type. Clicking on "All" got you a drop down menu that gave you a choice of all, analog and digital. I then selected digital on all TGs. I went to each "Department" in the system and set the TGs there to digital as well and noticed the improvement.

The system is STARS in Virginia. The statewide P25 system.

Somewhere else on something else I had read that having audio set to all was thought to cause a delay vs having the audio type selected.

I don't know whether it just comes up that way in the software and that's not what's really in the scanner or when I click on read from scanner and it shows those settings that means that is what is actually on the radio but there does seem to be a marked improvement. If it is what is actually in the scanner then its not getting set to "Digital" for some reason.

 

[Jay911]

Somewhere else on something else I had read that having audio set to all was thought to cause a delay vs having the audio type selected.

If you have the channel set to "All", the radio has to determine if the signal is analog or digital on every channel. That's where the P25 Wait Time comes in. It listens for 'x' amount of time (by default 'x' equals 400 milliseconds) to see if it detects any P25 digital voice frames. If it doesn't after 'x' amount of time, it will revert to normal analog comms. If you leave an analog channel set to "All" and the P25 Wait Time set to 400ms, you will typically miss nearly half a second (there are 1000 milliseconds in a second) of the audio transmission with the radio waiting to see if the signal's digital or not. If you turn the P25 Wait Time down to 0ms, it doesn't do this check at all (but it must do some kind of check, because I've seen a radio configured for 0ms decode P25 voice just fine).

I suggest that defining your known talkgroup/channel audio types, be they analog or digital, is always wise, because the radio will (supposedly) skip this time-consuming decode check.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

If you have the channel set to "All", the radio has to determine if the signal is analog or digital on every channel. That's where the P25 Wait Time comes in. It listens for 'x' amount of time (by default 'x' equals 400 milliseconds) to see if it detects any P25 digital voice frames. If it doesn't after 'x' amount of time, it will revert to normal analog comms. If you leave an analog channel set to "All" and the P25 Wait Time set to 400ms, you will typically miss nearly half a second (there are 1000 milliseconds in a second) of the audio transmission with the radio waiting to see if the signal's digital or not. If you turn the P25 Wait Time down to 0ms, it doesn't do this check at all (but it must do some kind of check, because I've seen a radio configured for 0ms decode P25 voice just fine).

I suggest that defining your known talkgroup/channel audio types, be they analog or digital, is always wise, because the radio will (supposedly) skip this time-consuming decode check.

Thanks for the info Jay, looks like I have some changes to make.

This certainly explains why moving the P25 TG from all to digital results in better reception. It's not having to check anything or wait before broadcasting.

Now on to fixing the things you showed me.

 

[troymail]

I've experimented extensively with various settings over the past few days and the only noticeable continuous improvement I've detected is that the button press responsiveness is improved with recording turned off. I have to say it's a fairly poor design knowing that enabling a feature like that degrades other features as critical as responsiveness to user interaction (or as some believe above - the primary reason for the radio - reception).

Here's a high level summary of what I've been trying...

In order to eliminate the weak signal variable, I've focused my attention to the local site of my State Phase 2 system. It isn't certain exactly where all of the towers of this site are but I do know there are at least 2-3 within a few miles of my location and I believe I am just west of those towers.

I've done everything I can to slowly increase the number of "optimize" options that I think might help:

- leave recording turned off
- create new favorites list
- slowly reduce the number of things in that favorites list til I reached this one system
- reduce to just the closest site
- reduce the frequencies to just the active control channel frequency
- move the radio to known "sweet spots" in my house
- switch to different antennas
- set the system HOLD time to 255
- keep the radio in ID SCAN (vs. ID SEARCH)

At this point I am about as "optimized" as I think I can get short of holding on a specific talkgroup.

I have Pro96Com running off of a PSR500 monitoring the system for activity.

Even with all of this I am still seeing times where Pro96Com is showing active talkgroups and the 536 shows either nothing or stops on the talkgroup with no voice about 1/3 of the time. The past 24 hours seems to be even worse and I have to believe it has to with the heavy rain we've been getting over the past few days.

One observation that may be an indicator of what is happening -- watching Pro96Com, there seem to be times where a user is keying a radio but all indications are that there is no voice. The 536 never indicates the talkgroup is active. This leads me to believe that the 536 IS actually receiving something at times but because it isn't getting good solid voice decoding (and something other than silence). But this is just speculation based on what I am seeing. Maybe it's just me but I think I'd rather know there is activity - even if the radio cannot decode it - than believe the radio is simply missing the signal. On the other hand, this would probably expose to users that the radio is actually missing activity.

At this point without any firmware updates or other released improvements, I'm about done with trying to make things work better. It is what it is.

Each of my radios (including the 536) all have their strengths and weaknesses and will serve purpose for one reason or another. Given all aspects and although not perfect, I believe my GRE PSR800 will continue to be my "go to" radio. If nothing else, I do know that the PSR800 stops on and receives much more activity than any other radio I've ever had (even if sometimes garbled). Additionally, it handles recording much better than the 536 (without any degradation) and reviewing the recordings is MUCH easier using EZ Scan than trying to review uncategorized BCD536 recordings 100 at a time using the Windows file system. EDIT/ADD: And the only tweaking (if you can call it that) I've ever had to do with my GREs is put the radio in the above noted "sweet spot" to get simulcast reception. All other digital reception/decoding just worked out of the box.

Lesson learned (personal experience/opinion): Based on experience with Uniden scanners for digital reception needs starting back at the BCD296 and then the BCD396T, I will have more patience in the future. I will be looking for others to provide consistent quality reports before making a Uniden purchase. Having said that and in contrast, if Whistler can regain the GRE quality, I'd definitely be willing to make that purchase more quickly. You don't have to agree with me - we can all have our own experiences, observations, and opinion.

Maybe someday we'll get something that receives well across the board (short of buying an APX). Perhaps maintaining focus on the real purpose of the radios - quality reception - rather than alot of other bells and whistles would get us there sooner.

 

[JamesO]

If you have the channel set to "All", the radio has to determine if the signal is analog or digital on every channel.

Is the "All" you are referring to as "Auto" in the Modulation Type Column??

I am not finding a "All" option in Sentinel anywhere.

Please clarify if you can.

 

[redburgundy]

Is the "All" you are referring to as "Auto" in the Modulation Type Column??

I am not finding a "All" option in Sentinel anywhere.

Please clarify if you can.

In my local Motorola system, "All" appears the column "Audio Type" for talk groups that are encrypted.
For P25 systems that I've looked at, the column "Audio Type" is blank and can't be changed.

 

[JamesO]

In my local Motorola system, "All" appears the column "Audio Type" for talk groups that are encrypted.
For P25 systems that I've looked at, the column "Audio Type" is blank and can't be changed.

OK, finally found the "Audio Type" column.

So the interesting part is on most of what I have configured the column "Audio Type" is blank and can't be changed.

What is interesting when I go into the Edit mode the "Audio Type" column is missing??

I will play around and see if there is anything that can be altered within the scanner itself.

If the column/setting is there, it is there for a reason, but exactly why and how it is altered, who knows?

 

[UPMan]

For P25 systems, the column is blank and cannot be changed. Everything on a P25 system is "D"igital.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

Red and James,

I found out that the option is not there in Sentinal in edit function but is shown blank in main screen. I have ARC436/536 and when you read from the radio the audio type setting IS there. Not only that but in my system it showed "All" for all TGs in all departments for the audio setting in three different P25 systems.

When clicking on the "All" you get a drop down with three choices. Analog, Digital, and All.

I changed the "All" it said was the current setting to "Digital" on all TGs. Then I wrote the new values back to the radio. It now shows "Digital" whenever I read from the radio.

This only applies in ARC not Sentinal. Sentinal does not show the audio type nor does it give you the option to change it.

Paul,

I'm not sure what to say. It could be a software thing vs a real thing I guess. I just don't know why it would read radio and come up with different values than what are supposed to be there from what you have said. Now I'm even more confused than usual.

 

[JamesO]

Red and James,

I found out that the option is not there in Sentinal in edit function but is shown blank in main screen. I have ARC436/536 and when you read from the radio the audio type setting IS there. Not only that but in my system it showed "All" for all TGs in all departments for the audio setting in three different P25 systems.

When clicking on the "All" you get a drop down with three choices. Analog, Digital, and All.

I changed the "All" it said was the current setting to "Digital" on all TGs. Then I wrote the new values back to the radio. It now shows "Digital" whenever I read from the radio.

This only applies in ARC not Sentinal. Sentinal does not show the audio type nor does it give you the option to change it.

Paul,

I'm not sure what to say. It could be a software thing vs a real thing I guess. I just don't know why it would read radio and come up with different values than what are supposed to be there from what you have said. Now I'm even more confused than usual.

Ghstwolf62,

Thanks for the explanation. I think I am following what you are saying.

I have ARCXT and ARC250 so I am somewhat familiar with the Butel software.

I may see if I can get into the radio settings and manually change some of the settings and see what happens.

Kind of seems like if there is a setting the software should allow for properly reading and changing the setting, may be by design may be a bug??

The real question is does the Wait Time and Audio Time really impact how the radio behaves and can it be tweaked buy the end user and optimized?

I have not tried yet, hopefully this week I can rearrange my hardware and put the 536HP in an area that I can spend more time playing around with it.

 

[UPMan]

Even ARC might show that setting, the scanner itself does not have that setting for P25 systems so the set value will be ignored.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

Okay thanks Paul. Guess it was user imagination. LOL

James,
That's what I've been doing, just playing around trying different things out and seeing what happens. As to wait time I think that will be on a case by case basis. Many say it makes it work better but when I tried I actually got all the problems they were complaining about so set it back. The consensus does seem to be that 0 works better though.

With Paul's answer that would explain why there is no way to adjust those settings in Sentinal since those settings aren't applicable. Its apparently something just in the ARC software and not functional.

I've been really lucky with things working real good right out of the box including STARS. I've tweaked some things which were icing on the cake settings and its even better now. I know you are or were having major headaches with your radio. Hope you've had some success on that front including getting that one site you were having such problems with.

 

[JamesO]

Okay thanks Paul. Guess it was user imagination. LOL

James,
That's what I've been doing, just playing around trying different things out and seeing what happens. As to wait time I think that will be on a case by case basis. Many say it makes it work better but when I tried I actually got all the problems they were complaining about so set it back. The consensus does seem to be that 0 works better though.

With Paul's answer that would explain why there is no way to adjust those settings in Sentinal since those settings aren't applicable. Its apparently something just in the ARC software and not functional.

I've been really lucky with things working real good right out of the box including STARS. I've tweaked some things which were icing on the cake settings and its even better now. I know you are or were having major headaches with your radio. Hope you've had some success on that front including getting that one site you were having such problems with.

Thanks for the info and feedback.

My problem appears to be that I am in a RF Black Hole and the house has aluminum foil covered foam insulation on all exterior walls, so it is somewhat a Faraday cage.

Top this off that STARS at 150 MHZ has a longer wavelength thank 700-800 MHz and the null points are pretty wide. I found that with a fully extended whip on the radio in the center of the house, I had to put the antenna totally horizontal to even start to hear the STARS control channel.

I have a really hard time with STARS even with my 396XT until I get about 4 miles from my house and actually get on I495, then I will start picking up the STARS control channel.

Hopefully in the next few weeks I can spend some time on my attic antenna and install my LNA and get things working a bit more reliably as compared to smaller antenna lower in the house.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

Ouch and I thought I was in a bad spot. I wish you luck with it. I think a higher bigger antenna will help a great deal. The scanner picks up two more sites than my other one does which is pretty amazing but its also hooked to an outside antenna.

My situation is not good reception wise either and its the only way really to go.

Inside the Diamond VHF/UHF band specific antenna did wonders even allowing picking up of one site when it wouldn't pick up any with the stock antenna. So that might be of help to you as well and there is an HRO to get it up your way too. I'm also going to get the Condor this week and try it out. Heard good things about it. Just add a 90 degree connector for the 536 and you'll be set.

One of those hopefully might hold you over until you can get things up and running.