The New NFPA 1802 Portable Radio Standard

[xmo]

One thing to note is the emphasis on audio quality:
"The radio must provide clear voice transmission and reception; speech intelligibility is objectively measured with an internationally recognized test method that’s used by cellular telephone carriers, called POLQA"

POLQA is a successor to PESQ. It's a computer algorithm that objectively produces a quality score similar to subjective testing results.

Up to now, the two-way industry has not embraced these methods. Presumably the manufacturers will be touting their POLQA scores. Maybe that's good and maybe not depending on how a high POLQA score correlates to actual performance that matters to a firefighter.

Early digital radios had a lot of issues on the fireground with poor audio in the presence of pumper noise, SCBA alarms, saws, etc.

This was highly visible. Since then, great progress has been made in digital VOCODERs and in-radio audio processing, noise cancellation, etc. That's one thing the sale of higher cost products has done - given the manufacturers the resources to develop better technology.

 

[12dbsinad]

With all the technical advances and technology, why isn't the communications method built in to the SCBA? Wouldn't this be the ultimate communications solution instead of a external radio that's buried underneath a turnout coat with a RSM and cord that needs to be clipped somewhere on your gear? A integrated microphone system inside the mask would eliminate crappy muffled audio subject to external noise, and you could utilize the heads-up display system already widely deployed to show visual indication of radio problems. Right now as it stands you have no idea if your 10 thousand dollar radio is even on and working. For 10K a pop you think some really nice technology could be put into the pack itself. These things boggle my mind when there are so many better options than relying on a portable radio stuffed under a coat.

But I get it, like a lot of NFPA recommendations, most times you just need to look and follow the money.

 

[mmckenna]

With all the technical advances and technology, why isn't the communications method built in to the SCBA? Wouldn't this be the ultimate communications solution instead of a external radio that's buried underneath a turnout coat with a RMS and cord that needs to be clipped somewhere on your gear?

Don't forget, antenna pressed against the gut, under the turnout gear and all the other stuff. No worse place to put the antenna. Design it into the helmet/scba, get it away from the body.

Jeeze, do we gotta think of EVERYTHING for these guys?

But, good point, you can't sell more $10,000 radios if you do something simple like that. I mean, hell, take an old HT-1000, take the guts out and build it into the SCBA with glorious analog audio. Standardize fireground comms on UHF where it'll penetrate buildings better. No fancy crap to fail.

 

[12dbsinad]

Don't forget, antenna pressed against the gut, under the turnout gear and all the other stuff. No worse place to put the antenna. Design it into the helmet/scba, get it away from the body.

Jeeze, do we gotta think of EVERYTHING for these guys?

But, good point, you can't sell more $10,000 radios if you do something simple like that. I mean, hell, take an old HT-1000, take the guts out and build it into the SCBA with glorious analog audio. Standardize fireground comms on UHF where it'll penetrate buildings better. No fancy crap to fail.

Exactly.

And also realize that no solution is going to be 100 percent effective. No amount of NFPA recommendations is going to protect a firefighter when flashover occurs at 1100 degrees and melts the helmet of your head and you're screaming for help. I'm willing to bet more LODD's involving communications occurs when dept's decide to utilize DTRS inside burning buildings instead of keeping it stupid simple.

 

[xmo]

" With all the technical advances and technology, why isn't the communications method built in to the SCBA "
-------------------------
Already done.

Scott has SCBA with built-in comm that uses mission critical bluetooth to pair with a Motorola portable.

 

[12dbsinad]

" With all the technical advances and technology, why isn't the communications method built in to the SCBA "
-------------------------
Already done.

Scott has SCBA with built-in comm that uses mission critical bluetooth to pair with a Motorola portable.

Yeah, but I'm not sure I would go out on the limb to say I'd place my life on bluetooth technology to connect to a external portable radio, but that's just me. Integrate the transceiver into the pack, then send it out stupid vanilla analog to eliminate infrastructure.

 

[xmo]

"... take an old HT-1000, take the guts out and build it into the SCBA with glorious analog audio. Standardize fireground comms on UHF where it'll penetrate buildings better. """
-----

You guys are way behind the times. A decade ago - after all the high profile communications failures - the NFPA was advocating exactly that - analog simplex fireground.

Then they got a bright idea: "Hey! We've got a hammer! Lets use it."

So, they wrote communications requirements into fire code. And, they want to stay on the host system.

New building? No comms? No certificate of occupancy.

These requirements in IFC and NFPA have resulted in an explosion of the BDA market. They call these systems ERRCS - Emergency Responder Radio Communications Systems.

In 2021 it is expected to be a $1.7 Billion market in the US. And the big radio companies aren't paying any attention to it.

Heaven help the poor system administrator that lets these things get out of hand and wipe out their sites. There were reportedly big problems with this in Boston and St. Louis

 

[12dbsinad]

"... take an old HT-1000, take the guts out and build it into the SCBA with glorious analog audio. Standardize fireground comms on UHF where it'll penetrate buildings better. """
-----

You guys are way behind the times. A decade ago - after all the high profile communications failures - the NFPA was advocating exactly that - analog simplex fireground.

Then they got a bright idea: "Hey! We've got a hammer! Lets use it."

So, they wrote communications requirements into fire code. And, they want to stay on the host system.

New building? No comms? No certificate of occupancy.

These requirements in IFC and NFPA have resulted in an explosion of the BDA market. They call these systems ERRCS - Emergency Responder Radio Communications Systems.

In 2021 it is expected to be a $1.7 Billion market in the US. And the big radio companies aren't paying any attention to it.

Heaven help the poor system administrator that lets these things get out of hand and wipe out their sites. There were reportedly big problems with this in Boston and St. Louis

To rely on a BDA for a structure fire? I'd like to have whatever the person is smoking to think this is a good idea. All it takes is the system to be compromised, like the outside roof antenna to be knocked off the roof or it falls over... you're done.

The reason the NFPA is big into BDA's is the lobbyist have a vested interest in BDA systems. Remember 9/11 when everyone was using comms located on the WTC and nobody heard anything after awhile to GTFO!?

 

[Cognomen]

I guess I'll be waiting for these ultra-rugged radios to be available cheaply on the used market after the Next Big Thing is built. lol

I mean, hell, take an old HT-1000, take the guts out and build it into the SCBA with glorious analog audio. Standardize fireground comms on UHF where it'll penetrate buildings better. No fancy crap to fail.

We'll have no more subversive talk like that, citizen!

You forgot to mention the built in flashlight.

Why do Baofeng's have a built-in flashlight?

To help you find your GOOD radio.

 

[12dbsinad]

To help you find your GOOD radio.

It's to help you find the 20 dollars on the bottom of your sock drawer to buy another one

 

[mmckenna]

New building? No comms? No certificate of occupancy.

These requirements in IFC and NFPA have resulted in an explosion of the BDA market. They call these systems ERRCS - Emergency Responder Radio Communications Systems.

In 2021 it is expected to be a $1.7 Billion market in the US. And the big radio companies aren't paying any attention to it.

Heaven help the poor system administrator that lets these things get out of hand and wipe out their sites. There were reportedly big problems with this in Boston and St. Louis

Sweet Jebus, we have one of those at a site right now. I have to pay to have it tested ever year. Solves a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, a fire fighter fighting an interior fire can now 'interoperate' with the garbage collector. Awesome.

The BDA's in the county north of me were found to be 70% faulty. Some had caused problems, so the building owner just unplugged them. Some were not needed, yet caused interference and raised the noise floor. Some just flat out never worked as far as they can tell. Many had their backup batteries cooked to death and would not hold up when power went out.
So many of those systems are installed by guys that couldn't even spell r-a-y-d-e-o, never mind understand how to put a coaxial connector on, they fall apart in your hands, yet the got signed off for beneficial occupancy. Then they want to tie up a dispatcher and a fire talkgroup while they test for 95%…. Oh, and they wanted a radio, too.

Our fire marshal hasn't mandated them, thankfully. I'd be looking at about $15 million to install them at all our sites, then ongoing upkeep and testing. Our local fire department has stuck to VHF analog with simplex fire ground.

I'm hoping I get to retire before the NFPA crap gets forced on us.

 

[mmckenna]

Why do Baofeng's have a built-in flashlight?

To help you find your GOOD radio.

Oh, man, that's funny right there.

 

[12dbsinad]

Sweet Jebus, we have one of those at a site right now. I have to pay to have it tested ever year. Solves a problem that doesn't exist. Sure, a fire fighter fighting an interior fire can now 'interoperate' with the garbage collector. Awesome.

The BDA's in the county north of me were found to be 70% faulty. Some had caused problems, so the building owner just unplugged them. Some were not needed, yet caused interference and raised the noise floor. Some just flat out never worked as far as they can tell. Many had their backup batteries cooked to death and would not hold up when power went out.
So many of those systems are installed by guys that couldn't even spell r-a-y-d-e-o, never mind understand how to put a coaxial connector on, they fall apart in your hands, yet the got signed off for beneficial occupancy. Then they want to tie up a dispatcher and a fire talkgroup while they test for 95%…. Oh, and they wanted a radio, too.

Our fire marshal hasn't mandated them, thankfully. I'd be looking at about $15 million to install them at all our sites, then ongoing upkeep and testing. Our local fire department has stuck to VHF analog with simplex fire ground.

I'm hoping I get to retire before the NFPA crap gets forced on us.

Then here is the kicker, what happens if said agency decides to do a frequency change? What if you're a smaller city and change frequencies because of interference? What if it's entirely another band? Are the building owners going to flip the bill to replace or re-tune all the sub-par BDA's?

 

[mmckenna]

Then here is the kicker, what happens if said agency decides to do a frequency change? What if you're a smaller city and change frequencies because of interference? What if it's entirely another band? Are the building owners going to flip the bill to replace or re-tune all the sub-par BDA's?

Looking for a meme of someone throwing their hand up in the air and saying "Not my problem".

I agree. Stupid approach. Better ways to solve it.

 

[GlobalNorth]

While some are blaming NFPA, why is no one pointing fingers or assigning blame at the USFA?

 

[DeoVindice]

One thing to note is the emphasis on audio quality:
"The radio must provide clear voice transmission and reception; speech intelligibility is objectively measured with an internationally recognized test method that’s used by cellular telephone carriers, called POLQA"

POLQA is a successor to PESQ. It's a computer algorithm that objectively produces a quality score similar to subjective testing results.

Up to now, the two-way industry has not embraced these methods. Presumably the manufacturers will be touting their POLQA scores. Maybe that's good and maybe not depending on how a high POLQA score correlates to actual performance that matters to a firefighter.

Early digital radios had a lot of issues on the fireground with poor audio in the presence of pumper noise, SCBA alarms, saws, etc.

This was highly visible. Since then, great progress has been made in digital VOCODERs and in-radio audio processing, noise cancellation, etc. That's one thing the sale of higher cost products has done - given the manufacturers the resources to develop better technology.

Even digital radios using the new AMBE vocoder will occasionally spaz out and transmit unusable hash when keyed up in proximity to loud process equipment. It's not an all-the-time thing, but it doesn't make me trust the things more...

(That reminds me - I've been meaning to do a comparative test between analog and AMBE P25 from the cab of various open-cab mining equipment)

 

[BoxAlarm187]

With all the technical advances and technology, why isn't the communications method built in to the SCBA? Wouldn't this be the ultimate communications solution instead of a external radio that's buried underneath a turnout coat with a RSM and cord that needs to be clipped somewhere on your gear?

As noted above, bluetooth technology already exists for several of the SCBA manufacturers. I work for a fairly large agency that embraces new technology, but we ended up having to disable the bluetooth radio features on our SCBA for some very legitimate safety concerns that occurred on several calls.

A integrated microphone system inside the mask would eliminate crappy muffled audio subject to external noise, and you could utilize the heads-up display system already widely deployed to show visual indication of radio problems.

One of the issues is the mask itself. The lens of the mask is the most fragile part of the entire PPE ensemble, and the SCBA manufacturers have been working very hard to reduce the mask cost since they're being frequently repaired and replaced.

For 10K a pop you think some really nice technology could be put into the pack itself.

Which now drives the cost of the pack up exponentially.

These things boggle my mind when there are so many better options than relying on a portable radio stuffed under a coat.

Don't forget, antenna pressed against the gut, under the turnout gear and all the other stuff.

Most of us a wear the radio in one of the two places: in a pocket on the breast of the coat, or in a leather pouch with an across-the-body sling that keeps up below the bottom the coat. It leaves the antenna vertically oriented and free of obstruction.

The key to success with doing SCBA or helmet-integrated (without Bluetooth) would be how to quick and securely get that hooked up while enroute to a call. Since we use our portables on every call, but 80% of them are EMS, you'd have to be able to quick swap between the two - something we don't have to worry about with RSM's. The other part of it is making it available to retrofit in the myriad of older helmets that exist, many of which have been personally purchased by the firefighters. SCBA's are an entirely different discussion.

But, good point, you can't sell more $10,000 radios if you do something simple like that.

Glad we're paying less than $4000/e for our tri-bands....

As for the BDA's, they're obviously not gold-standard answer, but when you have fire engines operating with two- or three-person crews, carrying two portables OR having the luxury of leaving someone outside to monitor the simplex channel on one radio and keep comms with the dispatch center on a second one is living a dream. We have a very large manufacturing facility thats the site of frequent EMS calls, and until the BDA's were put in, communications simply didn't exist. That added complexity to a call that should have otherwise been routine. Simplex is always reliable, but not always practical for the field personnel.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

To rely on a BDA for a structure fire? I'd like to have whatever the person is smoking to think this is a good idea. All it takes is the system to be compromised, like the outside roof antenna to be knocked off the roof or it falls over... you're done.

The reason the NFPA is big into BDA's is the lobbyist have a vested interest in BDA systems. Remember 9/11 when everyone was using comms located on the WTC and nobody heard anything after awhile to GTFO!?

The bigger issue is no one has really thought about all of the issues. Having a simple simplex fireground simply doesn't work in new construction when it comes to multi-story buildings due to the abomination that is Low-E glass (30+ dB of attenuation) so the IC sitting on the street still can't communicate with the crew in the tower unless the IC relies on the BDA/DAS and when that fails, you are really up a specific creek without a paddle. Then there's the issue of the donor antenna...pointing a single directional antenna at a single site. What happens if that site goes down? It may not even be a fire related issue but an issue with other public safety agencies that are trying to work a call in that particular building.

So it quickly becomes a larger issue as no one is paying attention to the other factors.

 

[WB9YBM]

I think some of this NFPA stuff has gone way to far. I get it. Really. No one wants to see any line of duty deaths, especially me, but NFPA is going too far on some of their standards.

Maybe the NFPA is just trying to cover their butts to avoid lawsuits? A lot of that going around! But I definitely see your point. Reminds me of the old adage: "An elephant is a mouse built to military specifications." Not all applications need a mil-spec mouse...

 

[mmckenna]

Not all applications need a mil-spec mouse...

Don't tell that to the prepper crowd. They need 'mil-spec' everything...

I don't think NFPA would be a party to any lawsuit, as they don't require meeting their specifications.