Having "standards" does not abrogate the right to bring tort action, even those that exceed the best known industry standards. You cannot "purchase order" your keister out of civil courts.
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The New NFPA 1802 Portable Radio Standard
- Thread starter trauma74
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If they are serious, preppers need to stop buying guns, radios, etc. and start getting degrees in interdisciplinary sciences and agriculture.
Education will be far more useful than crates of useless "toys" that can't be repaired with 20th century to 15th century technologies and need a logistics train 100 + years long. Low technology emergency medicine/natural pharmacology is another important skill. They also need to get into the gym - being a 5ft 10inch / 300 pounder guarantees only that a person that size will be a quick death, surrounding by a bunch of toys they couldn't ruck out.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
In my experience the terms "Education" and "Prepper" sort of mutually exclude each other. Easier to buy crap off e-Bay than take a course at the community college. After all, we all know what kind of people hang around colleges, and we downt takes kindly to them kynds of folks….
Way overkill radio for anyone, never mind the hams/preppers/hobbyists. I'm sure some will run out and buy them for bragging rights, though.
Harris/Motorola are just filling the gap, making sure there is always something newer, better, shinier, and of course, more expensive. That way you have something to ask the taxpayers for. Heaven forbid you accidentally let your budget request be lower than it was the previous year….
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12dbsinad
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I agree, there is no one size fit solution. Besides the reliability aspect of BDA's during a fire, there is also the technical side of them, like pumping garbage from inside the building like LED lights, computers, etc out to the outside world with high gain antenna's that point directly to the system receivers even if the system is designed properly. On lower frequencies like VHF this is a very serious concern as it raises the noise floor and deafens the entire radio system. On higher bands like 700/800 is less of an issue.
IMHO analog simplex is the best option possible whenever it can be used. Even if command cannot copy due to signal blockage, usually someone on the fire ground will. It could be a crew on the floor above you, whom then in return can relay a maday message back to command. If a BDA system fails, nobody hears anything and the entire communications system is dead and that is not good. I hate to bring up 9/11 again, but it's case and point. Interior comms isn't easy on large structures, highrise, tunnels etc and I'll be first to agree with that.
I work for an organization that also happens to have its own fire stations, not municipal, county, city, or tribal. NFPA 1802 has caused a stir within many of the fire stations, as many currently still use Motorola HT-750's, with others using APX8000's. While response efforts tends to be more of a first aid nature, the SFFD after actions report shows that accessories can compromise even a high end radio. It will be interesting to see what comes of the recommendations for new equipment. This entire thread has been very educational, thank you all for adding in advice and anecdotes.
Nice to see ANDREW to take his time and give full write up about it with details. Very well done.
“Bob explained that the need for this standard became evident after two San Francisco firefighters died in the October 2011 fire they were battling. While a number of factors that contributed to these fatalities were identified during the subsequent investigation, the condition that prompted the NFPA to develop new standards was that the Remote Speaker/Microphone (RSM) cords on the two portables worn by the firefighters had melted in the heat, resulting in an open-mic situation that obstructed normal communications.”
allthingsfirstnet.com
“Bob explained that the need for this standard became evident after two San Francisco firefighters died in the October 2011 fire they were battling. While a number of factors that contributed to these fatalities were identified during the subsequent investigation, the condition that prompted the NFPA to develop new standards was that the Remote Speaker/Microphone (RSM) cords on the two portables worn by the firefighters had melted in the heat, resulting in an open-mic situation that obstructed normal communications.”
Public Safety Advocate: Alphabet Soup – NFPA, PSCR, SBC, L3 XL – The Weather, and T-Mobile | All Things FirstNet
This week’s Advocate is made up of a series of shorter pieces covering items I think the public-safety community should to be aware of, starting with how upcoming wildfires, hurricanes, tornados, floods in the east, and severe drought in the west will potentially increase the number of incidents...
allthingsfirstnet.com
flametamer
Member
But...but...it's GREEN!....or...or...TAN!
speedway_navigator
Member
The report doesn't appear to give enough detail on the method of death to say if they had sent a mayday call a rescue team could have reached and extracted them sooner. Even if the IC knew the moment they went down and their location it sounds like the fire was too intense for immediate rescue.
12dbsinad
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That'll be the cost just for the RSM
This is a fantastic discussion thread. I retired from the FD after 25 years, and all these arguments have been made over the years. Yes the NFPA is full of the vendors on the tech committees. Yes the Radios are too damn expensive. Yes the NFPA standards are just suggestions but hold up to the "Reasonable Man Standard" in Court and the venders all know that. That all being said, and very thoughtfully:
I have been in the situation that I could not talk to my neighbors on a fire because they were on VHF and we were on UHF, things went to hell and the dispatchers had to play phone tag to get help, well it almost came too late . I am a strong proponent of interoperability, It has made things a damn site safer for the guys in the field , I can attest to that, as for everyone carrying a radio, I'm split, the interference from 4 portable all operating together while one guy tries to talk is a pain and almost a a hindrance to the practice. Is the equipment holding up, for the most part, except when it doesn't(SFFD), maybe that has no solution, but we try and we advocate to further limit the risk.
As for the part about talking to the trashman, it isn't so much about that as the dept. on the other side of the state or the country, and the fact we are moving resources more often for emergency services and public support services (phone, power Etc) for the more disasters makes capability and interoperability more important than ever. And it is happening, just look at the wildfires, the collapse in Dade County, the Tornados and Hurricanes. disasters small and large happen and local resources are being nationalized. Mutual Aid stems Like MABAS WORK, and Governors are not shy about the Stafford Act Depts. that never conceived of providing aid outside their area (DALLAS FD) are Sending crews to far off places. I know cause I was there and spoke to Chiefs that said "nah we don't DO that" (I got to be a part of the first interstate local government Strike Team ever formed When I went to Yellowstone NP, I took 24 hours to round up 5 engines, for a 100 engine order.)
I think we are at the middle point of this as far as 1802 is concerned, As we develop more integration of Cellular and LMR things will improve and evolve. The First Net thing gets everybody's dander up so I wont go there. But we will evolve. Nobody in the the 80's that I knew thought you could have multiple bands in one radio, (except for the Hams) that you could connect a Scott Pack to a radio, that you could track crews with RFID tags and Bluetooth. And 1000ch radio? IMPOSSIBLE and totally unaffordable! Remember how heavy some of the equipment was? Were going to figure it out, and when we do its not going to look like anything we have seen thus far. As far as the taxpayer I am one and I'm concerned about the waste, but Where I live I think we balanced features and subscriber cost pretty well. But I try to stay involved and make my opinion known.
I think the issues comes down to better relationships between the radio techs and the agencies, many a PIG in a POKE was sold to depts. that got led down the path by manufacturers.
I don't know all the answers, but I keep asking questions
End of rant
I have been in the situation that I could not talk to my neighbors on a fire because they were on VHF and we were on UHF, things went to hell and the dispatchers had to play phone tag to get help, well it almost came too late . I am a strong proponent of interoperability, It has made things a damn site safer for the guys in the field , I can attest to that, as for everyone carrying a radio, I'm split, the interference from 4 portable all operating together while one guy tries to talk is a pain and almost a a hindrance to the practice. Is the equipment holding up, for the most part, except when it doesn't(SFFD), maybe that has no solution, but we try and we advocate to further limit the risk.
As for the part about talking to the trashman, it isn't so much about that as the dept. on the other side of the state or the country, and the fact we are moving resources more often for emergency services and public support services (phone, power Etc) for the more disasters makes capability and interoperability more important than ever. And it is happening, just look at the wildfires, the collapse in Dade County, the Tornados and Hurricanes. disasters small and large happen and local resources are being nationalized. Mutual Aid stems Like MABAS WORK, and Governors are not shy about the Stafford Act Depts. that never conceived of providing aid outside their area (DALLAS FD) are Sending crews to far off places. I know cause I was there and spoke to Chiefs that said "nah we don't DO that" (I got to be a part of the first interstate local government Strike Team ever formed When I went to Yellowstone NP, I took 24 hours to round up 5 engines, for a 100 engine order.)
I think we are at the middle point of this as far as 1802 is concerned, As we develop more integration of Cellular and LMR things will improve and evolve. The First Net thing gets everybody's dander up so I wont go there. But we will evolve. Nobody in the the 80's that I knew thought you could have multiple bands in one radio, (except for the Hams) that you could connect a Scott Pack to a radio, that you could track crews with RFID tags and Bluetooth. And 1000ch radio? IMPOSSIBLE and totally unaffordable! Remember how heavy some of the equipment was? Were going to figure it out, and when we do its not going to look like anything we have seen thus far. As far as the taxpayer I am one and I'm concerned about the waste, but Where I live I think we balanced features and subscriber cost pretty well. But I try to stay involved and make my opinion known.
I think the issues comes down to better relationships between the radio techs and the agencies, many a PIG in a POKE was sold to depts. that got led down the path by manufacturers.
I don't know all the answers, but I keep asking questions
End of rant
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
That's good input, and I appreciate your point of view.
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