Train talk lingo

[burner50]

Sounds like a broken knuckle. Dispatch is asking if the knuckle can be dropped between the rails before pulling forward. Probably also asking if conductor can lift the knuckle. Some conductors cannot.

Some engineers can't get them off of the engine.

Broken knuckles were always a very hush hush thing where I was. Pre-arranged radio channels away from the road channel, I had a few channels in my radio that we could do split comms... My radio had 3575, so we would put 7535 in the engine radio.

Newer radios we could use the narrow splits or even NXDN if necessary. Anything to keep the weed weasels and dispatchers from hearing what was going on.

Ideally you would be in a spot where another train could get up next to you, but that's not always possible. I can't tell you how many knuckles I changed on hand signals, mic clicks, cell phones, or no signals whatsoever. Just change the knuckle, close them up and get on the radio for the entire world to hear "Looks like you just came apart back here, my way two to a joint" on someone else's train.

Then depending on how much you liked that hoghead, either hide the knuckle or set up a display for everyone else to see. The other crews will know what happened, but nobody knows anything.

 

[N1XDS]

Thanks guys for the information about my question. I've been listening to the local RR frequencies for my area and learning what the lingo all means when the dispatcher and the train engineer talk to each other about whatever needs to be said.

 

[trentbob]

Haha, it's time I broke my silence here but .. I grew up in a Philly suburb, used to ride the Reading all the time starting when I was about 15 years old to go into Center Philly which was a 20-25 minute ride. That would have been 1965. I wore my blue suit, white shirt and tie and was a page at the Franklin Institute assigned to the director of the Fells Planetarium, mostly helping people get seated and other grunt duties.

Long story short, ended up going to Long Island, New York when I graduated from high school in 1971 to get my education and after 7 years full time of school I ended up living there for a total of 15 years and moved back to Philly.

Information at that time wasn't really on computer, to transfer my official licenses and credentials it took a while and it was all done by paper so I answered an ad from SEPTA, Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority who had taken over the Reading and the Penzey Railroad. After a year of school and qualifying the whole two systems so I could work on the extra board, I became an engineer.

Secondary to my education and performance I was quickly promoted into operations after a year as you needed to be fully qualified in both systems and be prepared to take over any train, on any line, at any time, if a crew was to blow up or pass a red board or any other violation that would immediately take them out of service and off to the hospital for blood work. My job was to step in with a conductor who would take the train over. It was called a protect crew. No revenue was collected from the passengers, we just needed to get the connection made so as not to bang the schedule.

From there I advanced, used to cover vacations for the Book of Rules, worked all the towers, oh and by the way, I am not a mason. In those days, I was one of the first people to go that far without being a mason. Maybe some of you know what I'm talking about, maybe some of you don't.

One thing's for sure, I was a Straight Arrow, I could cross an interlocking of five tracks and I would stop at each track and look both ways, if you know what I mean.

I have read what you gentlemen have been talking about and I would love to know when did you do all of this?, first of all, and who did you do it for?

Believe me, I was never out to get anybody and gave so many breaks to so many people but, really? When did these practices you've used, happen? You are obviously, very experienced on the road.

As far as the original posters question, I'm still waiting, I would love to know what was being talked about. I really don't know and maybe it does have to do with the explanations here in the last number of posts that to me have been quite fascinating.😉
 

 

[burner50]

Haha, it's time I broke my silence here but .. I grew up in a Philly suburb, used to ride the Reading all the time starting when I was about 15 years old to go into Center Philly which was a 20-25 minute ride. That would have been 1965. I wore my blue suit, white shirt and tie and was a page at the Franklin Institute assigned to the director of the Fells Planetarium, mostly helping people get seated and other grunt duties.

Long story short, ended up going to Long Island, New York when I graduated from high school in 1971 to get my education and after 7 years full time of school I ended up living there for a total of 15 years and moved back to Philly.

Information at that time wasn't really on computer, to transfer my official licenses and credentials it took a while and it was all done by paper so I answered an ad from SEPTA, Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority who had taken over the Reading and the Penzey Railroad. After a year of school and qualifying the whole two systems so I could work on the extra board, I became an engineer.

Secondary to my education and performance I was quickly promoted into operations after a year as you needed to be fully qualified in both systems and be prepared to take over any train, on any line, at any time, if a crew was to blow up or pass a red board or any other violation that would immediately take them out of service and off to the hospital for blood work. My job was to step in with a conductor who would take the train over. It was called a protect crew. No revenue was collected from the passengers, we just needed to get the connection made so as not to bang the schedule.

From there I advanced, used to cover vacations for the Book of Rules, worked all the towers, oh and by the way, I am not a mason. In those days, I was one of the first people to go that far without being a mason. Maybe some of you know what I'm talking about, maybe some of you don't.

One thing's for sure, I was a Straight Arrow, I could cross an interlocking of five tracks and I would stop at each track and look both ways, if you know what I mean.

I have read what you gentlemen have been talking about and I would love to know when did you do all of this?, first of all, and who did you do it for?

Believe me, I was never out to get anybody and gave so many breaks to so many people but, really? When did these practices you've used, happen? You are obviously, very experienced on the road.

As far as the original posters question, I'm still waiting, I would love to know what was being talked about. I really don't know and maybe it does have to do with the explanations here in the last number of posts that to me have been quite fascinating.😉
 

Union Pacific 2006-2016.

2006 was pretty much the end of the craft of railroading. I got just about every qualification I guy could get. I really enjoyed flat switching but they took all the fun out of it and made it boring as can be when they outlawed kicking cars and mounting/dismounting moving equipment then went to 4 point contact required.

I learned to flat switch from old heads who had been doing it since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Work smarter, not harder...

I was in switchman training when my footboard yardmaster grabbed a switch to an empty track. I asked what that was all about, we aren't using that track. I can still remember his response: "I'm not going to use it today, but I'll use it Thursday". It was Monday. Dude already had every move for the entire week planned out in his head.

 

[trentbob]

That's the kind of response I was looking for, it's so ironic that I started 20 years before you did and our rules were so much stricter and we had enough bosses to enforce them and boy did we.

If it means anything, the same exact Railroad I worked then, today, is a disaster, and run by people that have absolutely no business being near that operation. A shadow of the excellence we maintained.

I didn't stay all that long either and pursued my career I went to school for, converted any Railroad Retirement back to Social Security and I'm retired now.

Thanks to everybody for some very interesting conversation and to really answer the original posters question I wish we had more information as far as, Freight, passenger, diesel, electric with catenary and pentagraphs, or the name so we could identify what rules they are under. I'm still curious.

 

[N1XDS]

That's the kind of response I was looking for, it's so ironic that I started 20 years before you did and our rules were so much stricter and we had enough bosses to enforce them and boy did we.

If it means anything, the same exact Railroad I worked then, today, is a disaster, and run by people that have absolutely no business being near that operation. A shadow of the excellence we maintained.

I didn't stay all that long either and pursued my career I went to school for, converted any Railroad Retirement back to Social Security and I'm retired now.

Thanks to everybody for some very interesting conversation and to really answer the original posters question I wish we had more information as far as, Freight, passenger, diesel, electric with catenary and pentagraphs, or the name so we could identify what rules they are under. I'm still curious.

There isn't much I can give or say I wasn't closeby to see what kind of train, freight, diesel or etc what they were referring to I am sorry the closest yard to me is in Fort Valley known as the Fort Valley Yard (10 miles away from me) and the Bosnan Yard in Macon which is about 20 miles away from me as well.

 

[trentbob]

So, the number one in your call sign would indicate that you are from New England but it's probably a vanity call which means you could put any number you want in your call. You mentioned Macon which is Georgia but I could not find a Bosnan but I did find Brosnan yard which happens to be near Macon.

It's a major Hub and serves about 10 freight lines but mostly NS. It's 20 miles from you which is quite a distance on simplex rail frequencies but we don't know what frequency you are listening to and if it was a repeater but let's assume it was simplex. That's really far depending on what kind of radio and antenna you were using.

So let's look at Fort Valley yard, sure enough, that serves the southern Georgia Railroad, which looks like it's been bought and sold a number of times and now is part of NS. It would appear they are freight lines and don't offer passenger service or electrified lines.

As far as operating Book of Rules NS always used the NORAC Book of Rules but have abandoned them and actually have their own NS Book of Rules which can be easily looked up on Google.

Given this information it might be easier to try to research exactly what these terms you refer to mean. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll start searching using the Norfolk Southern Book of Rules but this kind of gives people a head start when trying to figure out the terminology that I personally still have never heard of.

 

[burner50]

That's the kind of response I was looking for, it's so ironic that I started 20 years before you did and our rules were so much stricter and we had enough bosses to enforce them and boy did we.

If it means anything, the same exact Railroad I worked then, today, is a disaster, and run by people that have absolutely no business being near that operation. A shadow of the excellence we maintained.

I didn't stay all that long either and pursued my career I went to school for, converted any Railroad Retirement back to Social Security and I'm retired now.

Thanks to everybody for some very interesting conversation and to really answer the original posters question I wish we had more information as far as, Freight, passenger, diesel, electric with catenary and pentagraphs, or the name so we could identify what rules they are under. I'm still curious.

Things were extremely strict by the end of my time...

But production requirements were still the same.

I often worked in a small terminal on a yard job assignment. The local manager made sure we knew his schedule and when he was going to be doing "structured observations". He would also give us a heads up if managers from out of town were coming by.

Otherwise he made himself scarce when there was work to be done. He understood his assignment, and we understood our assignment. Work got completed safely and on time.

 

[trentbob]

It sounds like some of the differences between your setup and mine was we were a commuter line for a large crime ridden, poorly managed, corrupt city.

We had little diesel operation other than wire trains and other track maintenance equipment along with diesels that would rescue and shift about electric MU's. It was and is today a huge city transportation system, is all encompassing. You can go anywhere, we also have high speed lines, trolleys above and below ground, we have two major Subway systems, again, below and elevated, an extensive bus system and a major paratransit system all in one transportation system.

Hiring is not based on intelligence, competency, education, character, work experience or work ethic, which means there are no standards at all, including supervision..

As I say the system is a money gobbling boondoggle with late trains, buses that never show, breakdowns, stranded passengers and a terrible reputation.

Nothing like the days I worked there.

I was going to do some research today regarding some of the terms here that are in question but just got pulled away. I'll take a look tomorrow.

 

[trentbob]

Okay this is all I can find. Basically went through the book of rules for Norfolk Southern and ended up just checking numerous railroad glossaries. Here are three terms that were in the radio message and it really doesn't tie in together for me but here we are.

 

[streetbob]

Sounds like a broken knuckle. Dispatch is asking if the knuckle can be dropped between the rails before pulling forward. Probably also asking if conductor can lift the knuckle. Some conductors cannot.

When I started out as a conductor one of the qualifications was the ability to carry a knuckle a certain distance, I don't remember how far. A conductor that can't carry a knuckle is kind of useless especially on the road. They weigh 70 pounds.

 

[217]

When I started out as a conductor one of the qualifications was the ability to carry a knuckle a certain distance, I don't remember how far. A conductor that can't carry a knuckle is kind of useless especially on the road. They weigh 70 pounds.

Years back heard a conversation over the radio and she could not lift the knuckle.

 

[Coffeemug]

Man, it has been a while since I have really sat down and monitored the AAR Channels. I had an old Realistic PRO-38 10 channel manual programable, which I used to listen to Amtrak operations out of C Tec out of 30th Street Station aka William H. Gray Station. Most terms of I would hear.
The main channel was Ch.54 (160.920) which covers Morrisville Pa. down to Marcus Hook Pa. I knew in the late 80s early 90s Conrail Frankford Jct. and South Jersey road crews and yardmasters used Ch. 46 (160.800) and Ch. 64 (161.070)

1. Bulletin Orders - A daily or weekly general notice for train crews and maintenance personnel
2. CP - Control Point
3. Form D - Permit which allows Train Crews or Maintenace of Way crews to safely occupy a section of track without disrupting operations.
4. Fowling - Shut down operations on a section of track for Maintenace. On mainline, a freight train may fowl for dropping or picking up cars usually no longer 10 minutes, but that just a guess. That's usually on single or double track mainline and how they are from a run around.
5. C & E - Conductor and Engineer

When copying a Form D, the Dispatcher or Block Operator will usually say, Form D No. blah blah blah Address C&E Trains
Drop Down and so on.

I notice, since PTC came to play, the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority MOW started issuing access codes for MOW working crossovers and grade crossing equipment.

 

[trentbob]

Man, it has been a while since I have really sat down and monitored the AAR Channels. I had an old Realistic PRO-38 10 channel manual programable, which I used to listen to Amtrak operations out of C Tec out of 30th Street Station aka William H. Gray Station. Most terms of I would hear.
The main channel was Ch.54 (160.920) which covers Morrisville Pa. down to Marcus Hook Pa. I knew in the late 80s early 90s Conrail Frankford Jct. and South Jersey road crews and yardmasters used Ch. 46 (160.800) and Ch. 64 (161.070)

1. Bulletin Orders - A daily or weekly general notice for train crews and maintenance personnel
2. CP - Control Point
3. Form D - Permit which allows Train Crews or Maintenace of Way crews to safely occupy a section of track without disrupting operations.
4. Fowling - Shut down operations on a section of track for Maintenace. On mainline, a freight train may fowl for dropping or picking up cars usually no longer 10 minutes, but that just a guess. That's usually on single or double track mainline and how they are from a run around.
5. C & E - Conductor and Engineer

When copying a Form D, the Dispatcher or Block Operator will usually say, Form D No. blah blah blah Address C&E Trains
Drop Down and so on.

I notice, since PTC came to play, the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority MOW started issuing access codes for MOW working crossovers and grade crossing equipment.

Interesting train lingo there, how about train orders issued by order runners. We didn't have form D's.. just train orders.

We had temporary block stations overnight. With an actual red wooden board and a red lantern hanging over it. A Tower operators dream job for extra assignment. One Freight on Septa rail at night around 0400. He knew about it because of bulletin order.

All of the radio frequencies you mentioned are commonly used in the region. When I went into operations all the major Towers had a single radio for each one of those frequencies. On Amtrak 160.92 is the same but going north it switches over to 161.01, before Grundy interlocking. I think it's more like Cornwell's Heights now.

What's your view of the original posters radio interception logo?

 

[Coffeemug]

Interesting train lingo there, how about train orders issued by order runners. We didn't have form D's.. just train orders.

We had temporary block stations overnight. With an actual red wooden board and a red lantern hanging over it. A Tower operators dream job for extra assignment. One Freight on Septa rail at night around 0400. He knew about it because of bulletin order.

All of the radio frequencies you mentioned are commonly used in the region. When I went into operations all the major Towers had a single radio for each one of those frequencies. On Amtrak 160.92 is the same but going north it switches over to 161.01, before Grundy interlocking. I think it's more like Cornwell's Heights now.

What's your view of the original posters radio interception logo?

D Forms or Form Ds; are part of NORAC RULES
I don't want to assume that Form Ds are the same throughout the 48, but from New York down to Washington DC and New Jersey out Western Pennsylvania or Ohio. I'm saying the Form could be the same as far as instructions for Train Crews. But each Territory may refer to as Track Bulletin or Track Warrant.

 

[AK9R]

On CSX, they are "EC-1" forms. Pretty much the same as the Form D shown except that operating limits, section 2 on the Form D, are moved to section 1. There may be other differences.

EC-1s are read to the conductor by the dispatcher, then the conductor reads it back. The EC-1 isn't active until the dispatcher acknowledges the read-back. When the EC-1 is completed, the conductor will call the dispatcher to release the EC-1, the dispatcher will acknowledge and then ask if the engineer agrees. Usually the dispatchers will insist on hearing a different voice as the "engineer agreement".

I've also heard Norfolk Southern give track warrants. What I find odd is that they spell out words. "Operate on main, M-A-I-N, track between Royer, R-O-Y-E-R, and Yuill, Y-U-I-L-L."

 

[trentbob]

On CSX, they are "EC-1" forms. Pretty much the same as the Form D shown except that operating limits, section 2 on the Form D, are moved to section 1. There may be other differences.

EC-1s are read to the conductor by the dispatcher, then the conductor reads it back. The EC-1 isn't active until the dispatcher acknowledges the read-back. When the EC-1 is completed, the conductor will call the dispatcher to release the EC-1, the dispatcher will acknowledge and then ask if the engineer agrees. Usually the dispatchers will insist on hearing a different voice as the "engineer agreement".

I've also heard Norfolk Southern give track warrants. What I find odd is that they spell out words. "Operate on main, M-A-I-N, track between Royer, R-O-Y-E-R, and Yuill, Y-U-I-L-L."

I'm trying to remember exactly when we started using form D's instead of the standard train order which was often recopied by hand on a train order form by a tower operator and physically handed to the engineer.. often they would stop at a large Tower/ interlocking and someone would run it out to them. We used a lot of bulletin orders that were pre prepared post track work speed restrictions and things like that.

I'm going to say that by 1988 we were using form D's in the regional rail division of SEPTA, you can read back those locations and numbers spelled out, pretty fast, LOL

 

[burner50]

I don't want to assume that Form Ds are the same throughout the 48,

That's good because they absolutely are not the same. They're the same on NORAC roads. GCOR use something different depending on the main track authority of the line and has been adopted by around 400 different railroads.

The "N" in NORAC stands for Northeast

 

[burner50]

I'm trying to remember exactly when we started using form D's instead of the standard train order which was often recopied by hand on a train order form by a tower operator and physically handed to the engineer.. often they would stop at a large Tower/ interlocking and someone would run it out to them. We used a lot of bulletin orders that were pre prepared post track work speed restrictions and things like that.

I'm going to say that by 1988 we were using form D's in the regional rail division of SEPTA, you can read back those locations and numbers spelled out, pretty fast, LOL

NORAC published their first edition in 1987.

Train orders began to go away with the wide adoption of voice communications in locomotives in the 1970's.

 

[trentbob]

NORAC published their first edition in 1987.

Train orders began to go away with the wide adoption of voice communications in locomotives in the 1970's.

Yeah 1987-88 sounds about right for starting form D's for me. The train orders were actually in triplicate, the engineer getting the yellow copy. Hard to remember.

So far the best theories I've seen in this thread is the broken knuckle to explain the lingo in post 1.