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Type-D trunking questions

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fog

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I should preface this by saying that this is an entirely academic question. I am not building out a trunked system. But as a mostly DMR guy, I got to wondering about how NXDN/Nexedge handles trunking and Type-D drew my attention as a decentralized option.

First, it seems like higher-tier Kenwood radios do not support Type-D trunking. For example, the NX-5000 series says it supports Type-C and Gen2 trunking. Is this correct, or just an oversight? It seems like a really weird omission.

Second -- does Type-D support multisite? Perhaps this is a NXDN spec vs. Nexedge thing? Kenwood's site clearly positions it as a single-site only thing. But I swear that I read a technical discussion somewhere about how it does support it, almost like Passport. There's a home channel and a roaming affiliation channel, and the system will scan for bursts on the affiliation channel when it starts to get low strength on its current system. (Sort of like how Mototrbo radios handle IPSC roaming.) Did I hallucinate that whole thing?

Reading between the lines, Icom's "Multitrunk" sounds like Type-D multisite. Does Kenwood just not implement it with Nexedge? Am I just misreading?
 

mmckenna

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I should preface this by saying that this is an entirely academic question. I am not building out a trunked system. But as a mostly DMR guy, I got to wondering about how NXDN/Nexedge handles trunking and Type-D drew my attention as a decentralized option.

First, it seems like higher-tier Kenwood radios do not support Type-D trunking. For example, the NX-5000 series says it supports Type-C and Gen2 trunking. Is this correct, or just an oversight? It seems like a really weird omission.
Correct. The higher tier radios do not support Type D trunking.
Kenwood has some radios that support Type D, but as you noticed, mostly the low/mid tier market radios.

Weird omission, maybe. Might be a marketing thing. I don't know for sure. Kenwood's attitude seems to be pretty open, but if they don't see a market for something, they tend not to put a lot of effort into supporting it.
Kenwood has put their effort into the Type C trunking, and that's what they'll market. I have a single site Type C system, about to go to multi-site in the near future. For our application, it works well.

Second -- does Type-D support multisite? Perhaps this is a NXDN spec vs. Nexedge thing? Kenwood's site clearly positions it as a single-site only thing. But I swear that I read a technical discussion somewhere about how it does support it, almost like Passport. There's a home channel and a roaming affiliation channel, and the system will scan for bursts on the affiliation channel when it starts to get low strength on its current system. (Sort of like how Mototrbo radios handle IPSC roaming.) Did I hallucinate that whole thing?

Reading between the lines, Icom's "Multitrunk" sounds like Type-D multisite. Does Kenwood just not implement it with Nexedge? Am I just misreading?
Kenwood doesn't support multi-site Type D trunking. Icom Multi-Trunk, does. This is one of those places where marketing called the shots. Kenwood wants you to go with Type D trunking for that, that is where they've invested their effort, that's what they want to sell you.

If you want multisite NXDN trunking, you have two options, Kenwood NexEdge and Icom Multitrunk.
 
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Curt34

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Type-D trunking is essentially dead as far as any Kenwood version of it goes. Kenwood currently does not offer any radios that support type-D trunking. The last models that supported it were the NX-x20 and NX-x40 series, both of which have been discontinued.
 

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NX-240-IS, NX-340-IS, NX-740 and NX-840 are still sold by Kenwood, and they support Type-D trunking.
 

fog

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Type-D trunking is essentially dead as far as any Kenwood version of it goes. Kenwood currently does not offer any radios that support type-D trunking. The last models that supported it were the NX-x20 and NX-x40 series, both of which have been discontinued.
I got the impression that this is what Kenwood is moving towards. As mmckenna says, there are some Kenwood radios that still support it, but it doesn't seem like something they're really embracing in earnest.

It's too bad. I always liked the idea of decentralized trunking. There's a certain elegant simplicity to it, plus the benefit to a system operator of being able to utilize all your channels as talk paths. NXDN's support for multi-site decentralized trunking seemed really neat, but I guess the demand isn't really there?
 

mmckenna

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Yeah, it does seem to be essentially dead, as Curt34 said. Likely the few radios that still have it are there for specific applications. Especially the IS rated radios.

Type D NXDN and LTR are very similar, and it was a good option for small LTR replacements. It does have a certain amount of simplicity to it. In old marketing documents from Kenwood, it was aimed at small school/campus type solutions, also.
Type C does have some benefits. You can do a "non-dedicated" control channel and recoup the talk path, but it has some drawbacks. A control channel gives you some more options, better control, etc.

Kenwood's has focused on Type D trunking/NexEdge heavily, as well as embraced DMR. Their marketing attitude towards the NexEdge/DMR thing is "we don't care what you use, as long as it's a Kenwood radio". Most of the newer radios will support NXDN and/or DMR, even down to the NX-1000 line. Type C trunking was a limited market and Icom seems to have a firm grip on that. And while several Kenwood labeled radios will do P25, they are putting EF Johnson as the big P25 supplier.

The nice thing is there are a lot of options. Glad to see Kenwood is on the DMR bus, even though I'm not using any DMR. The last 20 or so radios I've purchased for work have all been in the NX-3000 line, so I do have the option down the road of going in that direction. Meantime, the NexEdge trunked system has been rock solid.
 

slicerwizard

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Type D / iDAS / digital LTR is a somewhat ghetto solution and if I ran Kenwood, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. How do you get an important message, like an emergency button press, through the system when all trunks are busy with voice traffic? How does a radio hop off of a high BER site on to a better one when it can't register/affiliate? How do you implement a busy queue?
 

k4ktr

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Type D / iDAS / digital LTR is a somewhat ghetto solution and if I ran Kenwood, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. How do you get an important message, like an emergency button press, through the system when all trunks are busy with voice traffic? How does a radio hop off of a high BER site on to a better one when it can't register/affiliate? How do you implement a busy queue?
The repeaters Burst data to talk to the radio and give it all this info its a rest channel data burst not a constant control ch
all the same functions still happen like on a CC just not a fast
 

k4ktr

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Wut?? You didn't address a single thing I wrote.
Read what I wrote again. I said the repeater send Outburst data which operate the same way has a continuous control Channel they send the same amount of information. You can still get an emergency through or anyting else because of the data burst
 

k4ktr

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The radios don't really register ever they just kind of send a burst it does hey I'm here. As far as an emergency goes if you press the button the emergency is going to go out it's going to keep attempting until it gets a channel. Most of the time on a properly belt system there is more channels than what is needed for the amount of traffic and if by chance all the channels are tied up most conversations don't last very long more than a couple seconds by the time I say something and then can I put my mic for you to respond my emergency just went out and another conversation ended so I picked up that channel
 

fog

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Type D / iDAS / digital LTR is a somewhat ghetto solution and if I ran Kenwood, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into it either. How do you get an important message, like an emergency button press, through the system when all trunks are busy with voice traffic? How does a radio hop off of a high BER site on to a better one when it can't register/affiliate? How do you implement a busy queue?
I wouldn't call it "ghetto" as much as having a different design goal.

For public safety, absolutely build a centralized trunking system. LTR, Type-D NXDN, or any decentralized trunking solution would be a poor fit for the reasons you mention.

But for tow trucks and snowplows? They don't have orange buttons. They don't need a busy queue. Instead of having two repeaters for voice channels and a third for dedicated control channel to handle busy-system edge cases, they can have three voice channels. If they're not getting through, they stop paying their bill.

If your goal is towing boats, a Corvette is a really terrible car. That doesn't mean the Corvette is crap; it means you're using entirely the wrong tool for the job.
 

slicerwizard

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Some of those systems are used by security firms and the guards depend on their radios. It's far from ideal. If an operator chooses LTR because all paths can carry voice, well, it comes with a downside.
 
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