US Wildland Fire Authority

[HappilyRetired]

While listening to the news Friday evening, I heard that the OCFA Chief is leaving to head the new U.S. Wildland Fire Authority. I haven’t been able to find much information on it yet, other than it appears to fall under the USDA. The story mentioned this in the context of OCFA not renewing the Chinook multi-county resource.

I’m curious whether this new authority will supplement existing Type 1 and Type 2 incident management teams, or if it’s intended to replace them—purely speculation on my part. I'm the next cop, another fireman and I'm still trying to learn the process. I only know the type one and type 2 from my ICS training.

I’m also wondering about communications. Will they have dedicated frequencies, or will they operate on existing interagency cache frequencies tied to each incident? And from a radio standpoint, are they expected to use P25, or has the Forest Service largely moved away from P25 for wildland fire operations?

I’m certainly no expert—just connecting a few dots I’ve picked up over time. Where I live it’s CAL FIRE country, with flashy one-hour fuels that run hard and fast.
Any insight would be appreciated. I did search the forums first but came up empty.

 

[es93546]

The existing system is about the most integrated interagency coordinated system in the federal government. Not only that state and local fire agencies are integrated as well. The use of the Incident Command System (ICS) will not change. I don't see a lot of change in how command teams function, they are a major part of the ICS. The existing "NIFC System" of radio frequencies won't change. They are some of the only nationwide authorized frequencies available. They are also structured to meet the needs of ICS organizations. They are already a pool of frequencies assigned to the USFS, BLM, NPS and USFWS (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service). One organization that will change is the Agriculture aircraft organization will be merged with the Interior organization.

What would help more than this new agency is to move the U.S. Forest Service into the Department of the Interior. There are a ton of reasons to do so, but conservatives see it as a threat to timber harvest. I won't say more on this subject, other than to say having worked for the U.S. Forest Service for a career and having followed the agency prior to and after my career I can see no reason not to make this move other than a lot of people who just don't want to change.

I'm concerned that at the field level that this new organization won't integrate well with the other resources of the agencies. As an example, how recreation affects wildland fire management. The new agency needs to integrate well with local non-fire resources and not be some top down effort. In many cases the BLM and the USFS have already combined organizations at the National Forest/BLM District and Field Office levels. I don't think any of the people mentioned, the President, the new head of this new agency and the Secretaries of Agriculture and Interior know enough about the wildland fire programs of the agencies involved. They probably have no idea how much the National Interagency Fire Center is already combining and coordinating emergency management nationwide. Not just wildland fire either, all risk emergency management. I am also concerned that the local organization, headed by District Rangers (USFS), Field Office Managers/District Managers (BLM), Refuge/Project Managers (USFWS), all of which share one principal. The local level relationship with the public. Those levels need to be able to supervise and manage the fire organization. I'm concerned that the public will be told there is nothing the local line officer can say or do to influence the actions of this new organization.

I don't know how to explain this well as at the age of 78 and with a couple of influential brain injuries I'm just not as articulate as I used to be.

 

[BC_Scan]

I don't know how to explain this well as at the age of 78 and with a couple of influential brain injuries I'm just not as articulate as I used to be.

Sir with all due respect, you are on point as i have ever read on here, I'm not even invested in this thread as its well out of my listening range however those on here that articulate with common sense and reasoned viewpoints is why I try to learn from the best . There are many people on here that take the time to consider proper spelling, grammar, syntax etc and other sensible questions instead of silliness. I applaud you and hope you continue to share your reasoned replies. Regards

 

[HappilyRetired]

I don't know how to quote es93546 in his voluminous information. But it did not directly address my question. It was opinion. But that's okay because subsequent investigation reveals that he got his wish. The new US Wildland Fire Service (USWFS) Chief has been named as the Brian Fennessy, outgoing Chief of the Orange County Fire Authority (OCFA) in Southern California. Fennessy has nearly 50 years of fire experience.

The U.S. Department of the Interior (DOI), which is leading the creation of the USWFS, has press releases and news about the planned service on its site:

Press releases related to wildland fire and wildfire management: Press Releases | U.S. Department of the Interior

News about wildland fire programs — News | U.S. Department of the Interior

It looks like we got there after all. As one familiar with operating under Unified Command of ICS, it will be interesting to listen to a major fire that unfortunately lay months ahead and how all resources are managed by one agency.

Thank you es93646.

 

[p1879]

Here is an informative article that may be of interest:

(BTW, I am not into the politics of the issue, just knowledge)

Hope—and Many Fears—Follow in the Wake of Trump's Plan to Transform Wildland Firefighting - Inside Climate News

The Departments of Interior and Agriculture announced a new U.S. Wildland Fire Service. But layoffs, confusion and budget cuts have sparked doubts.

insideclimatenews.org

Things have moved on some since that article came out a couple of weeks ago.

 

[HappilyRetired]

That's an interesting read. I think the politics are being thrown in there to mock up what sounds like changes that have been needed for decades. It was echoed at the very beginning of this discussion by es93546 that this needed to transition to the Department of interior. He nailed it dead on. He's a retired firefighter.

I can speak to working for a large bureaucracy within a larger bureaucracy. Heaven forbid I had to work for Karen Bass. I don't read this this change for change sake but rather a plan that is being detailed by the professionals to create a cohesive organization that pulls all resources under one umbrella. When the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing but one of them calls on the other one for help, that's when there can be problems.

What I read is people that are afraid that they're going to lose their jobs and that there isn't going to be any fire prevention. That wasn't written or voiced by president Trump. He cast Secretary of the Interior Doug Burgum to make it happen. Like any CEO, Trump doesn't sit at the top barking out orders for things he has no knowledge of. From everything I've heard he listens intently and then he makes decisions accordingly. We don't need to bring politics into this.

I want to know that when the hillsides catch fire as they do every year that all its going to take is a call to the tanker base and they're in the air. As it stands there's usually Cal Fire aircraft floating in Lake Elsinore ready for the task.

I think there's too much speculation on politics involved here. I don't know him, but they've picked a chief with 50 years of General firefighting as well as Wildland firefighting. For what I know the OCFA is top-notch. Let's go with that. Somebody that knows how to Marshall resources together for the benefit of the people they serve.

Thank you to those that have helped me learn of this new agency. Let's hope for the best and prepare for the worst. There are going to be bumps in the road that have to be worked out. Fire season never ends anymore in southern California.

 

[k7ng]

What would help more than this new agency is to move the U.S. Forest Service into the Department of the Interior. There are a ton of reasons to do so, but conservatives see it as a threat to timber harvest. I won't say more on this subject, other than to say having worked for the U.S. Forest Service for a career and having followed the agency prior to and after my career I can see no reason not to make this move other than a lot of people who just don't want to change.

BRAVO!
(I'm a retired Federal employee who worked in resource management). I brought up the idea of merging USFS into DOI (BLM, actually) because they have virtually the same job, as a cost-saving suggestion, back in the 2010 era when we were solicited for cost cutting ideas. I received a telephone call from a person at fairly high level (and I will not name that person or their gender) who told me to shut up and never bring such an idea up ever again, or else.

There are few reasons NOT to do such a merger, and many reasons to do it. The worker bees probably wouldn't have anything to fear, but the upper management and executive levels would.

 

[es93546]

I'm concerned that this is a top down effort, organized by people who don't know much of anything about natural resource management. Remember in the first Trump administration when he criticized natural resource agencies for not "raking" the forest floors. It left most of us wondering where he got that idea. This Fire Service is definitely not a ground level up proposal. Under such circumstances I hope they aren't building a "stovepipe," i.e. an organization that is independent, separate and does not work well with the agencies (NPS, USFS, BLM, USFWS, BIA). Stovepipe organizations may relate and communicate in their own organization levels but not with outside organizations. They need to realize who they are working for and that is the federal public land agencies, not just themselves. They need to integrate well with the various land units (Parks; USFS Regions, National Forests and their Ranger Districts; BLM State Offices, Districts and Field Offices, USFWS Regions, Refuges and Fire Districts; and BIA Agencies). This involves sharing authorities and that does not come naturally.

One thing that needs to happen and this might work better with a separate fire agency, pay has to be on par with state, county and municipal agencies. The Forest Service illustrates the pay problem in fire. People get a job in that agency, sometimes with minimal competition, get trained and gain fire qualifications and then quit after 5 years or so, maybe less and then apply to state forestry agencies and counties because the pay is better. The Forest Service is experiencing 30-40% vacancy rates in fire staffing.

It seems backwards, this applying to fire and natural resource management personnel alike, but the municipal agencies pay more than the counties, the states pay a little less than the counties and the federal government pays the lowest of all of them. I stayed with the feds because I could transfer all around the country to see how "the other half" lived. The feds will move you and pay some real estate costs to boot. It's a little harder to do that if you work for a state or local agency. The feds also allow you to stay in their health insurance system after retirement and that can make a big difference.

 

[es93546]

That's an interesting read. I think the politics are being thrown in there to mock up what sounds like changes that have been needed for decades. It was echoed at the very beginning of this discussion by es93546 that this needed to transition to the Department of interior. He nailed it dead on. He's a retired firefighter.

I only worked in fire management full time for the first four years of my career. I stayed involved in fire fighting by being a part of the "militia," which is made up of employees from all the other functions or resource areas of the agency (timber, range, recreation, wildlife, lands, maintenance, etc.) who attend training and then work their way through training assignments to become qualified for one or more of the 150-200 ICS positions. I ended up with 108 fire assignments and several non-emergency ICS managed situations. I spent 32 days on the Yellowstone Fires in 1988 as a crew boss of a military crew from Fort Lewis, Washington. I worked about 10 fire assignments on southern California conflagration type situations, on the line as a squad boss and then later as a crew boss, as a public information officer and in the plans organization. Interesting stuff!

 

[HappilyRetired]

I only worked in fire management full time for the first four years of my career. I stayed involved in fire fighting by being a part of the "militia," which is made up of employees from all the other functions or resource areas of the agency (timber, range, recreation, wildlife, lands, maintenance, etc.) who attend training and then work their way through training assignments to become qualified for one or more of the 150-200 ICS positions.

Thank you for clarifying what your role was. I will say that it scares me when people minimize their contribution to an overall team event. I'm trained all the way to ICS 400. Granted mine is in law enforcement but we did get some training and firefighting. We had to get s130/s 190 because we could be at an ICP that suddenly was being overrun by a fire. We had to be able to pick up a hose and defend ourselves regardless of the rank on our collar.

I could see immediately that your desire that the USFS be moved into the DOI had been met. People are already questioning the head of this new agency without respecting that chief Brian Fennessy started with the usfs and has over 50 years experience including running one of the most sophisticated California firefighting agencies in the state, the Orange County Fire authority. For such a small County I see them as really having their act together. There will be those that will disagree with me and try to point me straight but there's no need. The man comes with an excellent pedigree. It's a shame that they're already trying to tear him down. This is the dysfunctional side of the US government. Probably in this case by people who want his job but didn't get it. As one that lives in an urban interface somewhat overlooking Lake Elsinore but I know it's covered by Cal fire, we do have the Cleveland National Forest on the other side and I do enjoy listening to them. I have done some good hiking over there instead of driving all the way up to the San Bernardino. It'll be interesting to see what kind of subtle changes there are. I don't think radio frequencies will change. But I think they will be redefined. That's just an outsider looking in.

 

[p1879]

Latest word is the new organization is just DOI agencies, and not USFS.

US Wildland Fire Service launched, despite lack of funding and without majority of nation’s firefighting resources – Wildfire Today

wildfiretoday.com

 

[es93546]

Latest word is the new organization is just DOI agencies, and not USFS.

US Wildland Fire Service launched, despite lack of funding and without majority of nation’s firefighting resources – Wildfire Today

wildfiretoday.com

Wow, this is a major development. Here we were all assuming the U.S. Forest Service would be part of this new firefighting organization. Now the BLM will be the major part of this organization. To me, this shows how much the USFS should be in the Department of the Interior. If the new fire service gets better wages, this will decimate the USFS's organization. The USFS might end up with the lowest pay of all the agencies and this will further erode moral and employee retention, which is already in real poor shape.

 

[HappilyRetired]

Wow, this is a major development. Here we were all assuming the U.S. Forest Service would be part of this new firefighting organization. Now the BLM will be the major part of this organization. To me, this shows how much the USFS should be in the Department of the Interior. If the new fire service gets better wages, this will decimate the USFS's organization.

What really shocks me is how this plays out on the ground. I was 4x4’ing up in Rattlesnake Canyon (north side of the mountain near Fawnskin / northwest Big Bear Lake), and they’ve basically been forced to rely on a small volunteer fire department — even though they can roll in within minutes.

Meanwhile, I talked to the volunteer fire department's chief and learned that the BLM is the primary response, even though they’re an hour or more away and don’t have a nearby station. And for San Bernardino County Fire, USFS, and mutual aid coverage just… aren’t there. So residents are stuck with “wait for the agency that’s farthest away” as the official plan.

That makes zero sense — and it’s not just inconvenient, it’s dangerous. A small mountainside community shouldn’t have to “hold their emergency on pause” while the closest real response is coming from way out in the desert.

How is the USWFS going to change this?

 

[es93546]

How is the USWFS going to change this?

I believe you might have typed the alpha for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service when you meant to type USFS or U.S. Forest Service. Am I correct?

I don't think the USFS has any political capital left in this administration. They have made no headway in the firefighter pay situation so how can we expect them to do so now. Another issue in the Dept of the Interior: if firefighters get more money and other natural resource employees (NRE) remain with the same salary you can expect two things to happen (in my opinion): 1) there would be a rush of some NRE's wanting to switch to firefighting, 2) moral among NRE's will be low and there will be more vacancies in that segment than there are now. I don't expect that a great number of NRE's will be willing to work in fire management.

The bottom line is that USFS employees will be getting the shaft and I see a slow growing crisis developing.

It's a mess and I don't see this administration or the Congress really caring about what is going to happen.

 

[HappilyRetired]

I believe you might have typed the alpha for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service when you meant to type USFS or U.S. Forest Service. Am I correct?

I

I believe you might have typed the alpha for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service when you meant to type USFS or U.S. Forest Service. Am I correct?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I consistently used USWFS and not the US Fish and Wildlife Service. That's also not the name for the fish and wildlife service. Their name is California Game Warden Service (CDFW.) I have worked with them professionally on narcotics interdiction. They are actually a pretty badass organization that works more than just fishing pole violations. They are full PC 830.2 certified and they have the authority to enforce all state laws. What I'm getting at without trying to go off topic is I'm not sure what you're referring to es93546.

 

[HappilyRetired]

Here is an informative article that may be of interest:

(BTW, I am not into the politics of the issue, just knowledge)

Hope—and Many Fears—Follow in the Wake of Trump's Plan to Transform Wildland Firefighting - Inside Climate News

The Departments of Interior and Agriculture announced a new U.S. Wildland Fire Service. But layoffs, confusion and budget cuts have sparked doubts.

insideclimatenews.org

Things have moved on some since that article came out a couple of weeks ago.

This was an interesting announcement type article. It speaks of widespread layoffs but it doesn't differentiate between layoffs of firefighters or administrative personnel that would be duplicated many times over based on the number currently a firefighting entities. It's like in my business when we shut down a station and assigned its staff to another station and just expanded its coverage territory, there was administrative Personnel that was no longer needed. Some of those were police officers that could be returned to Patrol which was part of the goal. But some of them were administrative staff that duplicated the services provided by existing staff. Fortunately, I didn't have to get into that. Above my pay grade. But that's what I see happening and the widespread concerns of layoffs may likely be due to that. I do not see the new Chief with over 50 years of firefighting experience laying off firefighters when he knows that they are a limited commodity. That's why they have seasonal positions. Because they know that they don't have enough staff during the actual Fire season that no longer has a time.

 

[es93546]

The reasoning of Trump is erroneous. He talks about putting out every fire immediately. That is one reason we have a wildland fire problem. We did this for 85 years and greatly changed the characteristics of forests, making them more prone to large destructive fires. The statistic that 1800 red carded (ICS qualification card), members of the militia, were fired shows that the Trump administration is making things worse, while simultaneously thinking a separate entity will solve the problem. The U.S. Forest Service (USFS) is already spending half their budget on wildland fire management. Half of that is spent in California. But to eliminate 1800 employees who had qualifications to work large emergencies is just making the problem greater. This wildland fire service (USWFS) can't do it alone. We need far more funding for fuels management and treatment. Thin areas (this does not include logging), i.e. the understory where the excessive fuels exist and follow that up with prescribed fires. We need to double or triple the yearly accomplishment of this work.

The Trump administration members involved in this effort should be required to read and study the National Fire Plan of 2000. That plan put its arms around the situation. Trump is making the same type of mistake George W. Bush made, which is to ride in on a big white horse, tell the agencies they didn't know what they were doing and giving solutions that didn't address the problem. Bush's plan included a lot of logging and the USFS gathered data from the timber sales that followed the Bush administrations program and found that the ground fuel or understory fuel load actually increased because of what the hero on the big white horse directed. The National Fire Plan of 2000 was a ground up program, written by people who had spent time in the field wearing out the soles of their boots. The National Fire Plan prescribed a staffing level and facilities schedule to improve response to fires that need immediate suppression. The National Fire Plan applied to all the wildland fire agencies, Agriculture and Interior. The levels of staffing and construction of facilities (mainly engine fire stations and Hotshot Crew headquarters) has never been achieved. It's hard to recruit personnel when they don't have a place to live and have to try to find affordable rental units and commute to a substandard fire station sometimes dozens of miles away.

The administration, including Trump, should take tours of the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, which would show them how much coordination is already being applied to the wildland fire situation. They should be given a good, multi hour presentation of how the Incident Command System (ICS) was developed. The presidential administration is cutting personnel essential to the effort and repeating the riding in on a big white horse approach.

 

[es93546]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I consistently used USWFS and not the US Fish and Wildlife Service. That's also not the name for the fish and wildlife service. Their name is California Game Warden Service (CDFW.) I have worked with them professionally on narcotics interdiction. They are actually a pretty badass organization that works more than just fishing pole violations. They are full PC 830.2 certified and they have the authority to enforce all state laws. What I'm getting at without trying to go off topic is I'm not sure what you're referring to es93546.

I am embarrassed. I mixed up the USWFS (U.S. Wildland Fire Service) with the acronym USFWS (U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service). It was the first time I had seen the acronym for the Wildland Fire Service in writing. My mistake. I have no idea how this new agency is going to address any of the problems that a number of us have pointed out here.

The head of this agency has a background of fire suppression. I am concerned about his qualifications in vegetation management, fuel reduction and prescribed fire. I'm not sure of his background in these areas.

 

[es93546]

A lot of hard work over a period of decades, did things to make the fire suppression and fuels management a well coordinated interagency program. The color of the apparatus work every color of the land shown on the agency maps. When you enter the wildland fire management field, you are all part of a big family that doesn't care about what agency you are employed by. It's a big family. It is that well coordinated already. The Incident Command System has been a major factor in how this family was formed.

 

[es93546]

This was an interesting announcement type article. It speaks of widespread layoffs but it doesn't differentiate between layoffs of firefighters or administrative personnel that would be duplicated many times over based on the number currently a firefighting entities. It's like in my business when we shut down a station and assigned its staff to another station and just expanded its coverage territory, there was administrative Personnel that was no longer needed. Some of those were police officers that could be returned to Patrol which was part of the goal. But some of them were administrative staff that duplicated the services provided by existing staff. Fortunately, I didn't have to get into that. Above my pay grade. But that's what I see happening and the widespread concerns of layoffs may likely be due to that. I do not see the new Chief with over 50 years of firefighting experience laying off firefighters when he knows that they are a limited commodity. That's why they have seasonal positions. Because they know that they don't have enough staff during the actual Fire season that no longer has a time.

The best time to conduct prescribed fires, especially burning piles from understory thinning and ground fuel reduction, is in the late fall and in the depths of winter. Because of this permanent seasonal jobs have been given much longer tours (number of pay periods where employment is guaranteed). This also allows some apparatus (engines and patrols) to be staffed year round to handle fires that burn in the winter. In the eastern Sierra these fires start on L.A. Department Water and Power and Bureau of Land Management lands in the Owens Valley. In response at least one of the two engines on the White Mountain Ranger District and one of the two engines on the Mammoth Ranger District are staffed year long. Cal Fire now has two yearlong engines staffed at a station north of Bishop and one station in Independence. Cal Fire also has 5 inmate crews staffed 365 days/year at the camp north of Bishop.