USFS "Nets" and their respective use cases?

[CopperWhopper67]

Hello all

I have seen that the USFS uses a "Forest Net" "Crew Net" "Admin Net" and/or "Service Net" on the forest level and even "Project Net" on the region level for communications. The wiki doesn't go much into detail about nomenclature and use cases. What are the different purposes of all these channels? ...and why are they called "nets"?

Thank you

 

[nd5y]

Net is another name for a radio channel.

 

[ecps92]

To add to Tom's reply...

Nets are just a cluster/group of channels for either a Functional [Admin/Fire/Forest/Service] or a Geographic Area [East/West, Prarrie]
they just help on showing users which Group/Function they are on.

Some [Out East] Forests there is only ONE net, where-as out West there maybe many, depending on the size and need

Hello all

I have seen that the USFS uses a "Forest Net" "Crew Net" "Admin Net" and/or "Service Net" on the forest level and even "Project Net" on the region level for communications. The wiki doesn't go much into detail about nomenclature and use cases. What are the different purposes of all these channels? ...and why are they called "nets"?

Thank you

 

[INDY72]

NETwork for users doing an operational task. Just like in ham radio the SkyWARN, or ARES, or repeater group of users "NET"s...

 

[es93546]

NETwork for users doing an operational task. Just like in ham radio the SkyWARN, or ARES, or repeater group of users "NET"s...

This term is widely used in various government agencies. milf is the only one to hit it on the head, a net is short for network. There are more "nets" for National Forests in the west because the workload is generally higher and the land areas much larger than for those in the east. I don't think I've seen any National Forest outside California or Region 5 - the Pacific Southwest Region, that have Service Nets. Service nets get use for many purposes. It can be a command net for extended attack fires, it can be used for a large event, such as visiting high ranking politicians. Sometimes parts or all of a National Forest can be switched over to Service, when multiple fires or other incidents tie up both the Forest and Admin Nets. They were originally developed in pre cell phone, pre computer days for incident command post (ICP) to forest dispatch center communications. ICP's are typically set up in less remote areas, so the Service Net does not need as many repeaters as the other nets. When the Forest Net was busy on the Inyo NF, where I retired from, and I could not contact my Frontcountry Recreation management personnel on a tactical frequency I would have them switch to Service Net so we had the benefit of repeaters. Sometimes we switched to it for extended conversations. When I retired in 2001 not all of us had cell phones, at least the government issued type. The Service Net on the Inyo NF had a phone patch so we could talk with people in offices.

Project Net is a simplex frequency and most USFS regions have developed them now. Sometimes they are called a "Work Channel." These frequencies are used as a general tactical frequency for all personnel, fire and non fire. We used to use NIFC Tac 2, but NIFC has issued direction that the NIFC frequencies are to be used for incidents using a Type I or Type II incident management team so other tacticals have been assigned in most USFS regions. The regional tacticals are meant for emergency incident use so the Project Net is one that can be used for non emergencies, for all personnel.

Some forests have "Fire Nets" and usually all fire personnel use those nets. Unit status, incident dispatching and initial attack command traffic occurs on them. Admin is for everyone else. Some forests put law enforcement on the fire net and some put those officers on admin net. There is also a Region 5 Law Enforcement Net that is at the beginning of construction and hasn't advanced in coverage much, even though it has been in existence since the early 90's or so. Funding is the big barrier.

Nationally many forests have a net for each ranger district (subdivision of a National Forest in geographic area and line authority) or just have 1-2 ranger districts per net. The NF's in the Pacific Northwest Region (R6) have been doing this since the 1970's. It cuts down on the Forest Net being so busy. The Inyo NF now has a "North Net" and a "South Net" so each has two ranger districts of the four. It is needed as the forest is about 200 miles, north to south. The forest opted out of having a forest and admin net. When I was working on the forest it really needed a fire net and admin net for each the northern and southern portions of it. However, the cutbacks the agency has taken has reduced personnel in the field by 70% or more so the amount of radio traffic is fallen dramatically.

 

[es93546]

"Crew Net" requires some discussion and time that I don't have right now.

EDIT: Communications from command posts is usually by cell phone and computers. All the resource ordering and release from incident information is done by computer. If an ICP is not in a cell phone coverage area or lacks access to the internet, satellite links are installed. This is the best way to pass this info around as the computers keep track of everything so much better than the old methods. Situation reports and public information officer type information is much better because of computers.

 

[ko6jw_2]

There was a thread about a year ago give or take about the Los Padres NF Admin vs Service nets. It got a little tense.

Basically the nomenclature varies between forests. The Forest Net or Fire Net carries emergency traffic (mostly). The Admin Net is non emergency traffic and in the Los Padres some law enforcement (vehicle reg etc,). LP also has a Service or Fire Camp Net. Seems to be used in major incidents.

The Forest and Admin Nets have 400MHz links but only from Santa Ynez Peak.

We also used to have a Zone Net which was an intercom between forests in the South Zone and an Air Net used to request and dispatch aircraft. These had 400MHz links too. Long gone unfortunately.

As I said the exact definition (if there is one) seems to be forest dependent.

Remember that radio caches exist to be deployed in major emergencies. Thus, any national forest can get huge amounts of radio equipment in a very short time. This means that the few "Nets" can be supplemented with a variety of tactical channels and portable repeaters if needed.

 

[es93546]

There was a thread about a year ago give or take about the Los Padres NF Admin vs Service nets. It got a little tense.

Basically the nomenclature varies between forests. The Forest Net or Fire Net carries emergency traffic (mostly). The Admin Net is non emergency traffic and in the Los Padres some law enforcement (vehicle reg etc,). LP also has a Service or Fire Camp Net. Seems to be used in major incidents.

The Forest and Admin Nets have 400MHz links but only from Santa Ynez Peak.

We also used to have a Zone Net which was an intercom between forests in the South Zone and an Air Net used to request and dispatch aircraft. These had 400MHz links too. Long gone unfortunately.

As I said the exact definition (if there is one) seems to be forest dependent.

Remember that radio caches exist to be deployed in major emergencies. Thus, any national forest can get huge amounts of radio equipment in a very short time. This means that the few "Nets" can be supplemented with a variety of tactical channels and portable repeaters if needed.

When the Service Nets were being developed, they were called "Fire Camp Service Net." The Los Padres, Modoc and Six Rivers still use the term, "Fire Camp Service Net" and all the rest call them "Service Net." The heated discussion is when someone insisted that portable repeaters were set up in the camp due to the words "Fire Camp." He mixed up the portable repeaters on the NIFC system with the Service Net, because he was focusing on the words "Fire Camp." They have been called Incident Command Posts since the very early 80's on all units, federal state and local. So the term has been dropped, but those 3 forests must have a nostalgic attachment to it. In my time traveling about Region 5 on federal and state fires, doing investigations, going to training sessions and attending meetings, I never heard anyone use the term "Fire Camp Service Net" on the air, just "Service" or "Service Net." As late as 1988 I heard the term "Region 4 Logistics Net" when I worked on the Toiyabe National Forest. I had a peripheral role designing the new Toiyabe NF comm system. The one we had was about late 50's to early 60's technology. The plan written for the new system listed a goal of connecting Minden to this "Logistics Net." I transferred from that forest to the Inyo in 1988 so I lost track of any efforts to make this connection. So the Intermountain Region or GACC thought there was a need in 1988, but cell phones eliminated it by the early to mid 90's. The forest was connected to their own microwave system and also piggy backed onto the state's system, depending on the location.

The Los Padres remote bases on Santa Ynez can work every repeater on the forest, including those on the Monterey Ranger District. This is very surprising. I learned that from a source I have on another national forest in California. I don't remember for sure, but I believe the Service Net has a remote base on Santa Ynez as well.

The north and south dispatcher's net was neat. Every time a national resource (aircraft, Hotshot Crews, Incident Management Teams) was dispatched an announcement was made on these nets. Every time one unit ordered something from South Ops, you heard them doing this. There were a couple of dozen sites on both nets that carried this "intercom" traffic. The use of computers spelled the end of the need for this net. There is still an intercom, but it is all on the state's microwave system, which is a lot more extensive than the old zone nets. Cal Fire was using it anyway and consolidating all that traffic onto the state's system made a lot of sense. I was told that aircraft commitments to incidents is still announced on this intercom.

When I met former member "Paysonscanner" in 2019 she shared with me that at the "Highway 49" community they lived near they could receive both the north and south nets from their home. Her late husband set up a low band vertically polarized antenna aimed at the St. Johns electronic site to pick up the north zone net link to the Stanislaus NF dispatch center in Sonora. The Stanislaus and Yosemite NP used to be in north zone. He had a UHF beam aimed at the nearest south zone site, so they had incredibile full quieting signals for both. They could really keep up with wildland fire at their home. He had a pair of BC760's committed to each net. They were involved in their local volunteer fire department and when firefighters came to their house they were amazed.

 

[es93546]

Now, some background on "Crew Net." I worked on the Kaibab in the 1970's. Our radios had 2 channels, Channel 1 was forest net direct. We didn't have any repeaters so we stayed on that channel for everything. We didn't have a tac channel, air to ground or the bordering national forests, which were the Coconino and Prescott NF's. A R5 radio tech transferred to the forest in 1976. The district AFMO (Assistant Fire Management Officer) transferred from R5 that year as well. They told me that R5 had something they called "Crew Net" on 168.2000. It was the only tactical the USFS had in R5. They called it that because crews (be they engines, water tenders, crews, patrols, dozers) on the ground could use it. My understanding was that no other National Forests in the country outside of California had this frequency at some point.

I transferred to New Mexico and out of fire management in 1978. We never had "crew net." The year before I left New Mexico the Cibola NF got a new radio system. We had two tacticals unique to the forest added to all our radios. One of those was designated for all on the ground crew use only. No base stations could hear or communicate on this frequency. We started calling it "crew net" informally.

At some point NIFC picked this up as a tactical in their system. People from California have continued to call it "Crew Net." However, 4 frequencies designated by NIFC about 10 years ago are the real crew nets. They are the new nationally authorized all federal agency simplex "itinerant" frequencies. They became available after the narrowband mandate was issued in 2005. They are not tactical frequencies as NIFC has designated them for Interagency Hotshot Crew logistics purposes only. Each hotshot crew can use any of the 4 and each crew has been assigned a crew CTCSS tone from the 16 national standard tones to reduce the chances of interference from another crew. There are about 115 hotshot crews now so the many crews share the same tone (about 7 of them), but two crews working near each other can move to 3 of the 4 other frequencies to eliminate interference.

About 5 years ago or more NIFC issued a directive that the NIFC system frequencies were to be used on incidents managed by Type 1 and Type II incidents only, including 168.2000, Tac 2. National Forest regions and BLM state offices had been developing regional tacticals. R5 (CA), R3 (AZ NM) and R4 (CA on the Humboldt-Toiyabe NF, NV, UT, southern ID, & a portion of WY) has at least 3, with the BLM in a couple of those states kicking in 3-4 other tacticals. Forest Service Regions 2 (CO, WY, SD, KS, & NE), R1 (northern ID, MT & ND), R8 (Southern) and R9 (Eastern) all have single tac frequencies with R8 and R9 sharing one. Region 6 (OR, WA) have various frequencies designated for each forest and ranger district tactical use. R10 (Alaska) doesn't have much of a fire workload so they don't have one up there. NIFC Tac 2 has been removed in the primary frequency groups in their radios. EXCEPT in California for a reason I'm not privy to. NIFC has obviously allowed this, but it doesn't make sense as competition for frequencies on all the Type I and II incidents in California can get pretty intense. I think R5 must be claiming some ownership of the frequency as it seems to be the default initial attack tactical on many forests. Some forests have removed it from their primary frequency groups and use the 3 R5 tacticals. As of 2020 the Cleveland, Eldorado, Plumas, Sequoia, Sierra and Stanislaus removed NIFC Tac 2 from their primary groups. The National Park Service and BLM did the same. I haven't gotten the 2021 info yet. The remaining forests label the frequency as "R5 Crew Net," but it is for both tactical and logistical use.

This is a lot of background information about the nets you asked about. I hope this helps.