Warwick Fight

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sc8

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Was anyone monitoring last night at about 8PM with the fight in Warwick.

What departments went, and what was the final disposition. I heard Warwick, Chester, and "County Units"(OCSO).

Also, this showed the problem with how some radios are set up. Central polled the call, and sent it to the PSAP in Warwick. Apparently Warwick's frequency is primary instead of the polling channel. Therefore, Central needed to poll 3 times before units answered them instead of Warwick Base.

The radios should have polling channel as primary/priority and Warwick. That is how my scanner is set up.
 

SCANdal

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e911god, you know I know that you know the answer to this...don't give yourself up!

sc8 said:
Was anyone monitoring last night at about 8PM with the fight in Warwick.
I heard the incident.

sc8 said:
Also, this showed the problem with how some radios are set up.
There is no problem with how some radios are set up.

sc8 said:
Apparently Warwick's frequency is primary instead of the polling channel.
As it should be.

sc8 said:
The radios should have polling channel as primary/priority
No, it shouldn't

8,

First off, let me define polling for those readers that may not be familiar with concept as used in Orange. Those who enjoy monitoring any of the Citywide channels of the NYCPD's radio system may be familair with a portion of concept after hearing 10-11 Shots fired, 10-11 Bank Alarms, 10-13s, and other such calls transmitted over CW1, CW2, CW3, Traffic, etc., etc. While the concept as used by the NYCPD is flawed (encourages freelancing by any of the units monitoing the channel to head toward - or away - from the incident without telling anybody) and annoying (I stood next to and listened to a cop's radio at an event during the recent papal visit...how is he going to respond to a 10-30 in Staten Island from Manhattan?), it's understood that there is no expectation that a unit is to answer the call going over citywide - because it will be announced and a unit will be directly assigned over the appropriate zone channel. In Orange, the idea is that a potentially significant incident (i.e. violent domestic disturbance) will be announced over a VHF channel / 800 MHz talkgroup with the hope that the closest car available will answer up and respond to it. The concept of Polling, as used in the County of Orange, has been and will continue to be an absolute failure. I don't even know where to start with the listing as to why - but I'll give it a shot...

1) It isn't implemented countywide.

sc8, since you have Polling as priority, you should already be aware that there are only nine jurisdications that are polled (Town of Blooming Grove, Town of Chester, Town of Cornwall (sometimes), Town of Crawford, Town of Goshen, Town of Montgomery, Town of Mount Hope, Town of Wallkill, and Town of Warwick PDs). In other words, the other 23+ police agencies have done the right thing and determined that when they are in service they are to be notified directly when a potentially significant incident within their jursidication has been phoned in (either via 9-1-1 or direct dial/7 digit) and not waste time with polling a call.

2) Dispatch-type traffis is passed on Polling.

The high band version of the channel is used by Central to dispatch the Town of Deepark Police. Both versions are also used by some agencies to run datas when their primary dispatcher is busy and some units sign on and off duty on it. Thanks to the all-to-common practice of two-way radios in the County being programmed with the answer-back scan feature activated - some transmissions over Polling aren't even intended to be on that channel/talkgroup. In other words, not all traffic coming over Polling is a poll. So what happens? The channel gets nuisence mode deleted (locked out) of the scan sequence.

3) Too much infrastructure is in the way.

Since the County only offers polls on VHF High band and 800 MHz, those agencies above that are polled that use UHF (Wallkill and Crawford) had to construct cross band links to answer these calls. Speaking of bands...

4) Not enough infracture is in place.

What? The VHF and 800 sides are not multicast. So a car passing traffic on the VHF channel won't be heard by a car on the 800 side, and vice versa. A car passing traffic on one 800 MHz tower isn't heard on any of the others. The same may be true - depending on how far away from each other they are - of cars using different VHF towers. Meanwhile "Central" could be heard on both sides (maybe) - thus requiring a lot of intervention on the part of whoever is sitting it that position. Note that this specific issue is but one sign of how screwed up the entire countywide radio system is.

Let me bottom line this for you....How you opt to set up your scanner for recreational listening and how a public safety agency's two-way radio should be set up are two vastly different things. Polling forces the nine listed departments to scan with their primary radios. Having a scanner (or, as some of the better off departments do - two mobile two-way radios) in a police car is one thing. Forcing your primary link to the officers around you (your back-up when the feces hits the fan) and your lifeline (the dispatcher) to scan is insane. In the best case the response will only be delayed when you, as an officer at a car stop that's gone bad, puts over a request for assitance and the car nearest you has his radio tied up listening to Deerpark getting sent to a 9-1-1 hang-up call. Some officers in the field, I'm sure, have worked around this by using the cumbersome method of having their mobile set to their primary dispatch channel (be it MRD or their local channel) and the portable on their hip set to monitor Polling (which means a lot of dial manipulating when getting in and out of the car). I am left asking this... why are the agencies listed above allowing the County to take some of their heaviest jobs (robbery in progress, assault in progress, etc, etc.), throw them out over the air, and, with only their fingers crossed, hope that someone will hear Central?

SCANdal
 
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sc8

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What would the solution be to fix polling?

If all towns were to have all calls sent over PSAP or 7 digit phone numbers, that would still leave the problem of a State Police or OCSO car that is closer not being able to hear calls. Especially since they do not monitor every department. ie. Warwick PD and Wallkill PD. Also, some of those towns ie. Montgomery, Goshen, Chester, and I believe Blooming Grove and Crawford, do not have 24 hr. dispatch. If Central tried to call them over PSAP or on a 7 digit line, the call would go unanswered unless they were at the station.

Would the solution be to remove non-emergent traffic from polling and simulcast the 800 MHZ towers?
 
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SCANdal

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8,

Point one: Montgomery, both Goshens, and Blooming Grove - when their dispatchers are off duty - are dispatched by Central. Through careful monitoring you'll hear the local dispather, when he/she comes on duty, come over the air, say on MRD, and advise all of his/her units to switch back over to their local channels. Central dispatches both Chesters full time. Crawford is dispatched by SP Middletown when they do not have their own dispatcher - which is rare since their recent hiring wave.

Point two: DSP units already have the capability to come up on Police 800 and MRD. That leave only four or five of the nine polling areas that they - to my knowledge (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) - do not have direct access to (Blooming Grove [when on their own channel], Cornwall, Crawford, Wallkill and Warwick). So...

The solution: DSP Communications already get the jobs directly via the Computer Assisted Dispatch (CAD) system. If a job comes in and and the local police agency is in service - GIVE IT TO THEM DIRECTLY, either via PSAP (for the agencies Central doesn't dispatch, i.e.: Warwick, Wallkill) or over the air (for the agencies Central dispatches). This will insure that someone is going. You ever notice that when, say, Mount Hope goes out of service for the night that suddenly Mount Hope isn't polled any more? If you listen to the Troop channels though, SP is going. Why? Because 9-1-1 gave the job direct to the local barracks. If it works for eight hours out of the day, why not the other sixteen?

If the agency reports that they can not handle the job, (no units avilable, etc.), then the appropriate SP barracks must be notified so that one of their (hopefully) available units can be assigned. The goal is to insure that a radio car is promptly assigned to answer the call - which isn't happening today. Instead it's "Key up, Call out, and Pray" that someone hears Central, whether it's on the first attempt or the fifth. As an aside, if I was a resident that lived in an area like Crawford, Warwick, or Wallkill...and I knew all of this...and I had a police matter...I'd be speed-dialing them direct using the seven digit number instead of 9-1-1...but I digress...

If the DSP dispatcher sitting at SP Monroe, SP Middletown, or SP Newburgh believes that one (or more) of his units could be of service, they can assign their own units. A job could be announced ONE time, for any other units, in the off chance that may be nearby (i.e.: Sheriff's Department cars) over MRD and the Police 800 talkgroup - for the benefit of not only the DSP units that may be nearby - but also for any adjoining agencies who might be able to head over and hold down a scene until the primary agency arrives. What this does is it negates the need to force any of the field units to scan. Those agencies dispatched on MRD will get their jobs over MRD. Those agencies with their own channels will get their jobs from their own dispacthers. And SP units will get their jobs from their own barracks. A common channel (perhaps Intersystems, I haven't worked out the finer details yet) can be established for all responding units to meet on - something along the lines of how the "Chase" channels used in Phoenix, AZ.

The VHF version of Polling should be taken off the air and given to WAU-718 (the EMS dispatcher) so that the county can be divided into two zones (an east and a west). The Fire Advisory Board has recognized that the county has grown from a rural backwater into a truely suburban area. They divided 36-Control's area into an east/countywide (F1, 46.160) and a west (F10, 45.78) [Granted, it's not utilized correctly...but it's a step in the right direction...and the subject of a whole other thread] - the same must be done for EMS. Those channels have simply gotten way too busy to be safe.

Lastly, yes...everything should be simulcast. VHF MRD and MRD 800, all the Police 800s, all the Polling 800s, All five fire dispatch towers, all six EMS dispatch towers, all five........

SCANdal
 
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sc8

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That was kind of what I was thinking, put the call over ONCE on MRD/Police 800, then have all other coordination go through the local dispatcher. Kind of how Mobile Life dispatches, brief description over air, rest over terminal, only it is to the PD not a particular unit


I actually have an idea for how Orange County can be set up so Central does NO police calls whatsoever, except for something like the scenario above.

Basically:

T/Chester, V/Chester, T/Goshen, V/Goshen -- Consolidate into regional PSAP like Montgomery's

T/Blooming Grove, V/Washingtonville-- Go Full Time on Dispatch

T/Crawford-- Go Full Time on Dispatch

T/Mount Hope, T/Deerpark--Either Consolidate and Make a Regional Center OR both go back to SP Middletown OR OCSO (Mt.Hope because of obvious connections between MH and SO)

Orange Sheriff (Yes, they take calls)- Get a PSAP/CAD, Stop this merger thing

To Avoid layoff's at Central-- Leave one PD Dispatcher to put over the calls once and do BOLO's, handle traffic as a backup or when NYSPIN goes down for a particular agency. Assign the second PD dispatcher to 36-Control or WAU718 to help with call-load


Some extras-- I actually heard a T/Newburgh unit call a data to central over polling because his terminal was down !!! HELLO, use Intersystems or BEA Police

Also, fix this tower problem NOW! When Central was formed they were told by NYCOMCO they needed 10 towers to effectivley cover the county. They then went back and asked, what is the next step down, they were told 6. They then asked what was the absolute bare-bones minimum, NYCOMCO said 3. So, Central goes with three.
 

sc8

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Ahh yes.


I had the pleasure of speaking with a veteran OCSO deputy who told me all about Central's beginning.

How the SO had, for a month, been working 24 hrs to move their comm's to the building in Chester. Then on the day of the move, Joe Rampi announced to the Sheriff that his sister-in-law needed a job, as she was just layed off from Fronteir. The Sheriff, sensing the cluster that was going to happen with an untrained civilian in charge, told the executive he could keep Central, and leave OCSO out of it.

And the rest is OC Emergency Services legend...

The only thing I don't understand is how Orange County became NYCOMCO's guinea pig for so many things (800 MHZ, Polling--according to some sources a NYCOMCO idea, OpenSky aka SWN (god forbid))
 
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sc8

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Now that we have discussed the polling/central aspect of it, does anyone know exactly what departments responded and how many units went?

I heard Town of Warwick, but I couldn't tell who else went? I thought I heard 633 responding, and "county units", but I can't be sure. Does anyone have any better info.
 

Signal-Zero

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Hey SCANdal and sc8, I have a good one for you. I was talking to a good friend of mine who works for a PD that uses NYCOMCO's 800 system off Beacon. I asked him when they were finally going to dump that crap and get their own system like others have done. After complaining to me about how bad portable coverage is for them and giving me numerous examples (I had to stop him after a few minutes because he was getting pissed), he told me that their Chief, despite the complaints from the troops, are waiting to see what happens because NYCOMCO is putting up a new Motorola system and suppossedly all the towers were going to be linked so they would have better if not countywide coverage. He also told me other departments would be switching to this system as well.

So...now that NYCOMCO is a Motorola dealer, do you think NYCOMCO is going to do it right and put up a simulcasted Smartnet or true Smartzone system without any dedicated users ahead of time ? I'll bet they put up PASSPORT so they can move private companies over as well that use their LTR...and I bet they sell it to public safety as "no one will be able to hear you with a scanner." Wait until the Chiefs of Police who know nothing about radio systems demo it on the ONE talkgroup and say, "wow this is great." Then wait until they switch and realize that PASSPORT is not really public safety compliant and then realize you cannot scan talkgroups because the radio is constantly affiliating to the best signal on the home talkgroup. Then see how many polls are missed. You may be quoting me in the future if my guesstimate is right.
 

Signal-Zero

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SCANdal said:
You ever notice that when, say, Mount Hope goes out of service for the night that suddenly Mount Hope isn't polled any more? If you listen to the Troop channels though, SP is going. Why? Because 9-1-1 gave the job direct to the local barracks. If it works for eight hours out of the day, why not the other sixteen?
sc8...let me explain POLITICS (even though you are on track with the old County Exec and old Commissioner of Emergency Communications) using this quote from SCANdal above.

Mount Hope, who is normally dispatched by 911 on POL 800 GRM, gets an in progress call. Central POLLS the call so everyone (Mt Hope, NYSP and OCSO) all hear the call. Instead of all units answering with their location (which is the purpose of polling...says so in the 911 protocols I've read) to get the closest unit, it's a battle of whoever answers first gets the call. But, let's forget about the purpose of polling and all that. Mt Hope answers and gets the call. SP calls responding as well. SO unit is a block away, he responds also (even though in the County Charter their main purpose is CIVIL, but that's another discussion)...I'm adding these little things in because it helps with the POLITICS aspect...

All is well and everybody is happy. Now it's midnight and Mt Hope is out of service. In progress call comes in 911. Call is direclty transferred to SP Middletown who dispatches a unit on VHF. SO car is a block away from the call. Does the SO unit have any idea there is a call...nope, unless he is scanning SP Middletowns channel. The SO unit is the closest unit, but he didn't get the call. Why you ask....POLITICS.

Same thing...Hamptonburgh, call goes direct to SP Middletown. SO unit a block away...no poll, no idea. Are you seeing the SP trend of why 911 polls calls. Did you know that the Ex-Commissioner of 911's son was a State Trooper in Orange County ? Look at the new Director of Operations at 911...ex-SP Captain I believe. Am i making my point ?

Why do all SP cars have 800 radios as well as VHF radios ? They can answer on the 911 highband channels, right? Why are we the taxpayers paying a monthly fee to NYCOMCO for every SP car in Orange County to have an 800 radio when they can listen and answer on the 911 highband channel?

I have a brillant idea if you want polling to really work...AVL in the vehicles linked to the CAD. No need to Poll, CAD recommends the closest unit based on availability. But wait, PD's don't want to be monitored by the County.

I could go on and on.....
 
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sc8

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Is that really a 911 issue? I thought the Town of Mt. Hope/Hamptonburg themselves made the decision on who covers calls in their area after they go 10-7.


Actually, all SO cars DO monitor SP Middletown, for many it is default setting on their HB radios.

Additionally, wouldn't SP need 800 MHZ in their cars anyway for Montgomery/Newburgh/Woodbury and towns like that?

But, that aside, I do agree that politics are interfering and that polling needs to be fixed soon. If the county's PD's don't want AVL/CAD, then they need to start simulcasting towers, or answering up with locations, and then if a unit not the closest still wants to respond, do so as cover.

Or

Scrap 800 MHZ totally. Everyone goes back to VHF, and can hear everyone.
 

gcr33

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Why do you guys have so much against 800 mhz? It works in the real world every day.
Trunking systems work, analog and digital every day. It's when everyone is on the same system that it's best. Many agencies, counties, states have mutual aid talk groups and announcement talk groups to facilitate interoperability. That is a word that is not used much in your area apparently.

700-800 mhz. will be coming to your neighborhood
 

sc8

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It works if it was INSTALLED CORRECTLY. The problem is that it wasn't.

Orange County Central was told they needed 10 towers to effectivley cover the county. They put up 3 and are now left with multiple dead zones.

They were also told that the towers, at least the polling TG should be simulcast. They aren't and now you have a situation where an officer answering on Arden Tower can not hear an officer answering on Beacon tower, unless his radio is in scan, he is close enough, and no one is talking on Arden. This is a HUGE officer safety risk.
 

Signal-Zero

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gcr33 said:
Why do you guys have so much against 800 mhz? It works in the real world every day. Trunking systems work, analog and digital every day. It's when everyone is on the same system that it's best.
I agree. I like 800 very much. I used it when I was in South Florida not too far from you, although my main radio was VHF. My agency did an op with Metro-Dade and we used their EDACS 800 system and I was talking on portable from the ICW in Broward all the way down to Key Biscayne. That's what you can do with a voted, simulcated, multi-tower linked system.

The problem with the system in Orange County is every tower is it's own system. So in Cornwall for example, they use Beacon. In woodbury, they use Arden. There was a major accident on Route 32 in the flats last year. Woodbury was called in to assist with traffic. The Cornwall unit could not talk to the Woodbury unit and they could see each other a short distance away. Just one example, I have hundreds of others.

I also agree with everyone on the same system. In my town, EMS is on VHF, Police on 800 and Fire on UHF. No one can talk to each other.
 

Signal-Zero

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sc8 said:
Is that really a 911 issue? I thought the Town of Mt. Hope themselves made the decision on who covers calls in their area after they go 10-7.
That's not my point. My point is if the SO unit is out of his car on portable which is 800, he would not hear SP Middletown dispatching a unit to a call the SO unit may be a block away from.

My point is, according to 911, it's OK to poll to give SP the chance to answer up, but once the town goes 10-7 for the night, it's not ok to poll anymore ? You stil have an SO unit a block away.
 

gcr33

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What is this polling you keep talking about? Do you mean priority scan?

It's a bad idea. It will make your radio jump off the channel you are listening to while being dispatched and go to the priority channel.

Is the system the NYCOMCO EDACS system you are talking about? No one has been that clear or is it the Goosetown system?

I don't know who designed the system or if it was designed for portable use or mobile use only. Where did you get the information on the number of "towers"? Perhaps it's remote receiver sites that are needed or were the other 7 sites.

The dispatch console can be setup so it patches to the appropriate talkgroups and or they should have common talkgroups so every one who uses the system can talk to each other.
 

sc8

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Polling is a system designed to find the closest car to an incident with jurisdiction, regardless of agency. For example, even though a town may have its own PD, the State Police, Sheriff's Office, Railroad Police, Enviornmental Conservation Police etc. can answer to a poll if they are close enough.

Yes, it is the NYCOMCO EDACS system.

The rest of the questions I will let someone like SCANdal or e911god answer as those are more technical and I practically know nothing about the technical aspects.
 

SCANdal

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Read the first 15 posts

gcr33 said:
It's a bad idea. It will make your radio jump off the channel you are listening to while being dispatched and go to the priority channel.
Yes, it is and yes, it does.

gcr33 said:
Where did you get the information on the number of "towers"? Perhaps it's remote receiver sites that are needed or were the other 7 sites.
Orange County talkgroups are carried over three different stand-alone EDACS systems, one in Beacon, NY, one in Graham, NY, and another in Arden, NY. Some talkgroups are available from the Ellenville, NY site. There are no remote receiver sites for any Orange County system (800 or VHF).

gcr33 said:
The dispatch console can be setup so it patches to the appropriate talkgroups and or they should have common talkgroups so every one who uses the system can talk to each other.
Yes, the dispatch consoles can be set up to patch, but due to the potential for feedback in two-radio (one 800, one VHF high band) equipped cars, the dispatcher are instructed N O T to use the feature. There are common talkgroups available i.e.: Intersystems, Emergency Services common.

SCANdal
 

ocmonitor1

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oc911god Way off base

It isn't often that I feel so compelled by bad information that I register with "forums" of any kind, but two things really irk me and that's the chip on the shoulder of "e911god" and the way Tim McCarver calls Yankee games. I'll deal with Tim McCarver another time, but e911god should be renamed "e911clueless". I've been in the communications industry in one form or another for nearly 25 years and came close to being a World Trade Center statistic. I've got numerous contacts in the wired and wireless industry, including many of the Hudson Valley's wireless vendors and the Orange County command structure and people.

First of all, your opinions about how the 800MHz system, polling, and everything else you discuss with your myopic views seem to be based on third or fourth hand info. You give opinions based on opinion. OC is not New York City, nor is Ulster, Rockland or anywhere else. Their decisions on how to configure communications systems are mutually exclusive, based on terrain, engineering principles, equipment availability, economics, and yes, even politics. It is what it is, deal with it. It doesn't seem like you are qualified to design communications systems, either, so get the chip off your shoulder.

Your constant trashing of a radio vendor indicates to me that you may have a contact at another that may have lost business to the other. That's their fault, for whatever reason. It's tainting your outlook on life. You need to get first hand info before you spout off about how wrong everyone else is.

I've worked with many personalities over the years and yes, I do profile people. It's kept me alive. I can tell you may be an only child, not that that is bad, but you don't play well with others. You may have worked in public safety in the past. If you did, thank you. If you are retired, kick back in the ol' rocker and enjoy your scanner. My guess is that you were escorted out the door. You are compulsive about being right. Am I right? You have no professional training in the design of radio systems, but you try to impress others because you have amassed a vocabulary of terms and buzzwords. Most of the people I've worked with in the past, who constantly trash those who actually do the work, are not good at what they do, but they need to tear others down to elevate their lack of credibility.

If you are currently on the OC payroll, I'm sure I personally know your supervisor and his boss. It's a shame, because I have the highest regard for those who serve the public and those in the military. People sacrificing for others should be compensated far above those getting paper cuts in corporate boardrooms.

You need to go back to being a hobbyist and stop attacking people and organizations for which you obviously have no first hand knowledge. Trust me, no one is coming to you for a communications system design - - - ever!

Now, I've got to give Tim McCarver a piece of my mind..............
 
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acm10

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NYCOMCO/mid hudson communications

I see that NYCOMCO has bought the radio freq's from mid hudson communications.
i wonder if they are going to put up a passport system and if they will scrap the edacs system and use passport as its replacment one things for sure they wouldnt have to worry about the nextel interferance anymore.
 
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