Warwick Fight

[kevin390]

I will most likely get it for asking this question but here we go. Can todays scanners pick up a passport system? Thanks for your time........Ray

 

[sc800]

ocmonitor1:

I will let e911god explain for himself exactly what he does, if he so chooses. Suffice it to say he is in a very good position to comment on Orange County's radio system, especially frequencies used by law enforcement, and much more than a "hobbyist".

Anyway, his sentiments on NYCOMCO, Central, and the radio system are not his alone. They are echoed by many police officers throughout this county, complaining about everything from spotty coverage to incompetent dispatchers at Central. Next time you see an officer and talk with them, ask them about the radio system. Chances are there sentiments are the same as discussed here.

 

[APX8000]

OK newbie to the board...normally I would not entertain this type of public bashing, but I feel a response is in order.

First of all, your opinions about how the 800MHz system, polling, and everything else you discuss with your myopic views seem to be based on third or fourth hand info. You give opinions based on opinion.

Try first hand info. The e911 in my screename is what the FBI refers to as a clue. Not only did I work at the 911 center both full and part-time since their beginning stages, but I also worked at other local PD's in Orange County during my 17 plus years in public safety, both before and after my time at Central. I actually started dispatching when there was no such thing as 911 in Orange County, only 7 digit, no CAD, only "punching cards". I remember answering services dispatching ambulances in the County. I've also been a volunteer firefighter and EMT for a good portion of those 17 years. So I've been on both sides of the mic. I am very familiar with how things in the county are set up and my opinions are based upon facts.

OC is not New York City, nor is Ulster, Rockland or anywhere else.

You are correct. And that's why people at 911 should not have used Sullivan or Ulster or whatever other County as an example of how Orange County should be set up in it's infancy. Orange County is it's own unique growing place. System design and implementation should be based upon that fact.

Tell me...When did system design go out to bid in Orange County? Oh yeah right, never.

Their decisions on how to configure communications systems are mutually exclusive, based on terrain, engineering principles, equipment availability, economics, and yes, even politics. It is what it is, deal with it.

Deal with it? Tell that to the family of public saftey personnel when they are killed because their radio goes to N/C or they get a busy signal because Bob in his snowplow is tying up a frequency on the same trunked system used by public safety.

What's even better is the county owns some of the frequencies used on that vendors system. So the vendor is charging the county a fee per subscriber unit to use the frequencies the county owns, and then selling airtime to commercial services on frequencies licesned for public safety use? Sounds like a call to the FCC an AG Office may be needed. You want LID numbers to prove it? I have a nice log from Unitrunker.

If system design was based on the aforesaid facts (which they are), then why is the current vendor not following those recommendations. If they did a terrain study, they would know that the current system is not designed for adequate radio coverage.

Look at Orange County signing on to be a Level 3 partner with the SWN. They signed on before the State even accepted the system and the system is only in it's testing stage. Has any terrain studies, enginering principles, etc. been conducted in Orange County? No. Yet they say, sign us up at the full partner level. Cmon. But I don't know what I'm talking about, remember.

SWN design is for 95% MOBILE STREET COVERAGE. You may not know, but the State Police will be a primary user of that sytem. SP handles a good portion of calls in this county and also provides primary police services for several towns. I'd hate to see what happens when the Trooper goes inside a house on a violent domestic with his portable. 95% MOBILE IN STREET = what percent in-building portable coverage?

It doesn't seem like you are qualified to design communications systems, either, so get the chip off your shoulder.

No. I don't have an engineering degree. But, I have designed several communications systems, both in and out of Orange County and NYS for that matter.
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Your constant trashing of a radio vendor indicates to me that you may have a contact at another that may have lost business to the other.

I have many contacts in the radio business. I am not a dealer or reseller. If anything, my contacts have GAINED business that was lost from that "other radio vendor" for poor service and performance. I don't recommend any particular vendor when I consult. But, I can name numerous agencies that have dumped that vendor to go with a more knowledgable and reliable vendor.

I've worked with many personalities over the years and yes, I do profile people. It's kept me alive. I can tell you may be an only child, not that that is bad, but you don't play well with others.

Actually I have three siblings, two of which are also involved in public safety. If profiling is what has kept you alive, then I think it's time you checked your will to make sure things will be taken care of when you're gone. And considering I'm married with children, I think that qualifies as "playing well with others." Stooping to personal attacks because your argument lacks credibility?

You may have worked in public safety in the past. If you did, thank you. If you are retired, kick back in the ol' rocker and enjoy your scanner. My guess is that you were escorted out the door.

Your welcome. Every door I've even walked out of has always been on my own accord and has led me to another door leading to stairs going up. I also never burn the bridge that led my to that door. I've left employers in the past only to move up. I'm at the place I want to be now in the position I want to be in and plan on staying here. I've gotten here through education and experience. One day I will kick back in the ol' rocker, but not until I get my 20 in. By that time, the kids will be in college, so I'm sure that ol' rocker will get no action.

You are compulsive about being right. Am I right?

Trick question. If I answer no to "am I right," then you are right. If I answer no to being "compulsive abou being right," then you are also right. You'd make a good defense attorney.

I do enjoy being right, but am the first to admit when I am wrong. I only argue topics I have knowledge of, so I'm right more than wrong. If you consider that "compulsive," so be it. You ARE the profiler.

You have no professional training in the design of radio systems, but you try to impress others because you have amassed a vocabulary of terms and buzzwords.

myopic views

Pot calling the kettle black here.

If you are currently on the OC payroll, I'm sure I personally know your supervisor and his boss.

Not on the OC payroll and I know them too. As indicated above, I've worked for some of them in the past. Like all bosses, some are good and some are bad. Some have a clue and others are clueless.

It's a shame, because I have the highest regard for those who serve the public and those in the military. People sacrificing for others should be compensated far above those getting paper cuts in corporate boardrooms.

Agreed.

Anything else I can help you with? PM me with future nonsense so others on this board don't have to listen to your rant of BS. You are obviously defensive for a reason. Maybe because you are that other vendor? Truth hurts sometimes.

 

[APX8000]

I will most likely get it for asking this question but here we go. Can todays scanners pick up a passport system? Thanks for your time........Ray

Current scanners do not have the ability to trunk a passport system. You can still monitor it conventionally though, but will hear everything on that frequency instead of a particular talkgroup and you have to set your scan hang time to basically zero.

The only option currently is a discriminator tapped scanner with an "enhanced" data slicer.

 

[GTR8000]

You are obviously defensive for a reason. Maybe because you are that other vendor? Truth hurts sometimes.

 

[ocmonitor1]

Everyone's an expert

Given our terrain, a municipality would have to spend alot more than they do to guarantee 100% coverage. It won't happen. Many of those in the field have to understand they need to know where not to use portables, especially while sitting in a vehicle, in a low area. Like I said, this isn't NYC, where the Citywide FD transmitter can cover all five boroughs.

When was the last time you had 100% coverage with a cell phone? SWIN is spec'd out to give 95% coverage on state roads only. There's more to it than meets the eye. That's my beef with everyone slamming the radio people, the county, and public servants.

As for "incompetant" dispatchers. I guess no one else has ever made a mistake on their job. If there's issues with dispatchers, everything they say is recorded, so if they screw up, it'll be dealt with. Like I said, without first hand information, no one should be slamming anyone. No one in the field knows what's going on at the 911 call center at any particular time.

 

[DaveNF2G]

No one in the field knows what's going on at the 911 call center at any particular time.

OK, so why are they laughing so loudly in the background. I haven't been able to figure out a professional cause for that. It sounds like a party to me - along with a lack of respect (due to poor training?) for the presence of live microphones.

OBTW, I do have a good idea what happens in a PSAP, too.

 

[APX8000]

Given our terrain, a municipality would have to spend alot more than they do to guarantee 100% coverage. It won't happen.

Correct. If you can find me a manufacturer that will guarantee 100% coverage, you would be the first. Most countywide trunked systems (meant to be used for interior operations like Rockland County is building, not exterior mobile in the street), are spec'd for 95% portable in-building coverage 95% of the time. That is the accepted standard within the industry. There are also density ratings as far as building penetration in concerned. These systems costs millions of dollars.

Many of those in the field have to understand they need to know where not to use portables, especially while sitting in a vehicle, in a low area. Like I said, this isn't NYC, where the Citywide FD transmitter can cover all five boroughs.

Sometimes, those of us in the field don't have a choice on where we get to use our portables, whether it be on the side of a mountain fighting a brush fire or in the basement of a house doing the same. My concern is vendor's selling systems without proper coverage testing and users not bothering to do tests of their own before acceptance. I'll give you an example. Chester EMS and Blooming Grove EMS used to be dispatched off two towers in order to cover their districts. Orange Count fires up the Schunnemunk tower. Schunnemunk is a great site, I've used equipment up there and can attest to it. But the testing consisted of the Deputy Commissioner of Emergency Communications and the Captain of Chester EMS driving around to various locations with a pager to see if it tripped.

When was the last time you had 100% coverage with a cell phone?

Don't even get me started on cell phone companies. I love Nexthell's new commerical uses actors in firefighter equipment having a group connect meeting with the PTT.
The phones were walking fast a flawlessley. Such a marketing gimmack.

SWIN is spec'd out to give 95% coverage on state roads only. There's more to it than meets the eye.

So then why is the county signing on as a level 3 partner to use a system designed like this? Who's pocket is getting greased?

As for "incompetant" dispatchers. I guess no one else has ever made a mistake on their job. If there's issues with dispatchers, everything they say is recorded, so if they screw up, it'll be dealt with.

Have you ever tried to fire someone protected by civil service ? I know they are trying to deal with some dead wood, but the process takes time.

 

[gcr33]

I don't have a problem with the arguments presented other than your lack of knowledge of trunking systems. It is something that is used everyday, every minute, every second in other parts of the country. They work well when designed well. 95% coverage is the design standard correct. With adequate channels and they are available in your area in either VHF, UHF or 700/800 the garbage truck tying up a freq. is not a problem. I use a Motorola smartzone 800 mhz system every working day. I am biased towards Motorola since I have never seen brand Tyco work well in a "smartzone" type environment. The OPEN SKY thing is a joke. Just look a PA. There are many wide area Motorola systems. There are not many wide area Tyco toy systems working well.

Users on the system can be prioritized BTW so that the publc safety sector takes precedence over public works.

You cannot tell me that any current frequencies you are now using give 100% coverage 100% of the time. We tested ours 2 feet off the ground inside hospitals etc. It did not work inside the xray lead lined room.

 

[sc800]

I don't think there is a problem with 800 MHZ systems. I think there is a problem with the Orange County 800 MHZ system. There is a big difference.

Yes, I agree that 800 MHZ works everywhere and there is no system that can guarantee 100% coverage. BUT, Orange county's was set up incorrectly reducing coverage from what it could be.


Also, this thread was designed to discuss the response to and radio issues relating from the call for a major fight in progress in Warwick, NY. This is a thread to bash other users, especially respected ones like e911god. I will report my own post and have it locked if this continues.

 

[ocmonitor1]

Here's my last post - I promise. Good luck with the PhD. I wish I stayed in long enough to earn one. But, you guys keep proving my point. There's no first hand experience here and how does a PA degree qualify one to critique radio systems? I'll be impressed when I see the radio vendors check in, going head to head. That would be loaded with first hand info for you guys to sink your teeth into.

 

[DaveNF2G]

My degree has nothing to do with it. I have the experience. I didn't list my entire C.V. in my signature.

 

[GTR8000]

There's no first hand experience here and how does a PA degree qualify one to critique radio systems?

So...working in a 911 center and working in the field...both of which require actually USING these radio systems, not just designing them ON PAPER...does not count as first hand experience? Really, you sure about that? If my radio doesn't work half the time in the field because the coverage is spotty at best (poor system design or implementation?), I should just keep my mouth shut because I have no qualifications to critique it? I guess one needs an engineering degree specializing in RF in order to realize what radio system are or aren't good. Forget about the poor schleps out there actually using the systems day in and day out, what the hell do they know...as long as your system meets the right specs on paper, it's all good! :roll:

I'll be impressed when I see the radio vendors check in, going head to head. That would be loaded with first hand info for you guys to sink your teeth into.

Well, I guess that reinforces it then! We are only allowed to listen to and go by the propaganda the manufacturers and salesmen put out. If they say the system works, then by God, it MUST be so! Are you kidding me, or what?!?

The only person in this thread that needs to reevaluate his position is you, because quite frankly, it's absurd and reeks of someone who has spent way too much time selling these radios and not actually using them. Check back in after you've actually worked in a 911 center...the fact that you "know" the bosses and have "contacts" is not impressive at all. Check back in after you've tried using the products you sell while packed up inside the basement of a working structure fire and need to call a MAYDAY because you're in a world of ****.

Incidentally, having known Brothers who died that day, I find this statement to be a little offensive and completely irrelevant to this discussion:

I've been in the communications industry in one form or another for nearly 25 years and came close to being a World Trade Center statistic.

Was that supposed to enhance your credibility or something? If so, you missed the mark by a mile.

 

[loumaag]

Attn: ocmonitor1

Here's my last post - I promise....

This is entirely up to you; I would imagine the regulars of NY forum would not be unhappy to see this as fact. However, whether you come back to post more or not, I must say I find it interesting that you only registered to post in this topic alone, I guess this means you were lurking for quite a while. Whereas such lurking may make you feel like you are qualified to trash someone's opinion without providing any "bonifides", I can assure you that no one else sees it that way. Now, just so you understand, we don't take kindly to attacks on other users here; indeed you agreed to not do so when you registered, so I am going to warn you that such attacks as referring to other members as a child and saying they don't play well are not going to tolerated in the future. Consider this as your official warning against such comments.