Westminster P25

[greenthumb]

Lately I've noticed numerous occasions where a BLUE or RED NWF TG appears on all the EDACS systems, but not DTRS, as well as vice-versa. However, I've also seen a few recent instances where a Blue or Red NWF TG appears on BOTH DTRS and the EDACS systems. Also it seems that when a Red or Blue NWF appears on EDACS, it also comes up on the Lakewood P-25 system (sometimes only the Green Mountain Site).

Notably a few months ago MetroNet disappeared from all the EDACS systems, EXCEPT it is still present on DIA EDACS (where it is used the least). Moreover, MetroNet also just recently appeared on the Lakewood-et al. P-25 system as a new TG.

Also, it seems like GREEN 1/2 have always been present on EDACS, DTRS and Lakewood P-25 during the last few months.

-Nate

Keep in mind that most of the EDACS agencies serve up all of the NetworkFirst talk groups over the air whether a radio is affiliated with that talk group or not. DTRS, on the other hand, requires a radio to be affiliated with a talk group in order for it to appear on a site. Therefore, the most reliable sites to hear NetworkFirst on DTRS will be the busy/high sites (i.e. Lookout, Squaw, Riley, Smoky Hill). The Denver safety simulcast will be the most reliable on the EDACS side if the admins wise up to how much airtime (capacity) they're wasting carrying metro net and all of the NetworkFirst talk groups all of the time.

 

[greenthumb]

Westy ran on a possible structure fire and there was some confusion about talk group labeling. Dispatch put units on "Ops A" but the unit radios label that as "Fire Ops 2." At least one of the crews didn't know how to navigate there.

That's a rookie mistake - Westy has been in the trunking world long enough not to make that error. Geez....

 

[rckydenver]

One thing to note for now greenthumb is that today (Saturday) that Arvada was using the 851.76250 for the CC, not sure how that effects that frequency in with the Westy system might conflict have two CC going with that system. If some of use have those Home Patrols and need to update those on Monday.

 

[scanlist]

I seriously doubt that the radio techs are going to allow collisions between the Eldorado site and the new systems. They are incrementally adding to the simulcast system while shutting down repeaters on the EDACS system while maintaining enough capacity on the EDACS system until Arvada switches over to their portion of the Harris P25 network.



They have already taken 851.0625, 852.1625, 852.8875 and 853.350 off the air on the Eldorado EDACS system.



For the history buffs Arvada PD was the first PS agency in the area to use trunking on this system's original pre-rebanding configuration on 12/15/92. 21 years later they will be closing the door behind them.

 

[Mojaveflyer]

Dumb Question - Westy P-25 system

I used ARC500 to program my PSR-500 with the new system. I see the S meter showing full strength but hear nothing. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Steve2003]

Do you ever see a "T" on the top of the screen while scanning? If no, I would suggest trying the following:

1. Make sure you have all control channels programmed in.
2. Make sure you don't have Westy configured as an EDACS system in your scanner.

I used ARC500 to program my PSR-500 with the new system. I see the S meter showing full strength but hear nothing. What am I doing wrong?

 

[scanlist]

Also the fact that this is a simulcast system scanners tend to have difficulty in decoding the CC and Voice channels if one is in-between transmitter sites or a distance away from the radio system footprint.

 

[Mojaveflyer]

Westy P-25 Question

After playing with the radio for awhile, I am receiving the new system.One thing I have learned is that coming home from work tired is not conducive to programming it right. The other issue is that when you listen in the middle of the night there's not as much traffic on the system. Thanks for the help, guys!

 

[Kevin_N]

How many towers are they simulcasting? I have a really hard time with it where I'm at.

 

[Mojaveflyer]

Westy P-25

I believe they are only using one tower. The quality of the audio really seems to fluctuate and I don't know if it's base vs mobile or what... I live in west Thornton and seem to do ok with reception.

 

[greenthumb]

I haven't driven around to see if all of the sites are transmitting, but the licensing points to three sites in the simulcast. The sites are all pretty low and in town so the aerial coverage for Westminster on the simulcast will be reduced as compared to EDACS on Eldorado Mtn. However, they probably have somewhat better in-building coverage on he new system.

 

[k0pwo]

I am picking them up loud and clear here on top of Smoky Hill. But then, I am looking down into Westminster.

 

[Mojaveflyer]

Westy P-25 system

I heard some radio checks on this system today, on the PD Channel 1 talk group. It sounds like the techs are fine tuning the system. The audio seems more clear today without the 'digital' effects as pronounced as they were.

 

[greenthumb]

Typical for a simulcast system - most times after "go-live" there is a little bit of fine tuning that needs to be done. It's getting to be less and less though with the new linear modulation schemes for simulcast P25.

 

[scanlist]

If anyone could post a current pro96com site log here it would be appreciated. As was discussed on the monitoring net last night it was discovered that tables need to be programmed into older scanners PRO-96/2096 and Uniden 296/796 models.

They are transmitting 2 tables on their control channel that are NOT the normal ranges seen on Mot and Harris systems. And no entering them as seen in the log file does not work.

 

[Steve2003]

Here is my latest site file:

FileVersion:7
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : 5C8
System Name           : City of Westminster
WACN                  : 927A7
Tower Number (Decimal): 1-1
Tower Number (Hex)    : T0101
Tower Description     : Simulcast
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : 
Timestamp             : Mon Dec 16 12:25:03 2013

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,806.06250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,811.00000,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"00-3600","cv",851.06250,"00-3600",806.06250,0,1
"00-3688","vp",852.16250,"00-3688",807.16250,0,2
"00-3746","vp",852.88750,"00-3746",852.88750,1,1
"00-3783","cv",853.35000,"00-3783",853.35000,1,0
"00-3998","cv",856.03750,"00-3998",856.03750,1,0
"01-3871","cvp",859.38750,"01-3871",814.38750,0,1
"04-2286","c",0.00000,"04-2286",0.00000,0,0

Not too sure about the 04-2286 channel....

 

[scanlist]

Thanks. Their signal is poor up here for the most part however I'm getting just enough data off of the CC for a PRO-96 to lock onto. Working on the math to where anyone with older GRE/RS and Uniden's can use them for monitoring.

 

[Halfpint]

Thanks. Their signal is poor up here for the most part however I'm getting just enough data off of the CC for a PRO-96 to lock onto. Working on the math to where anyone with older GRE/RS and Uniden's can use them for monitoring.

Mucho Thanks, Phil! And, I hear you about poor signals, too. (EG; Getting *less* TV channels, 1/2 as many, with Digital TV than with Analog TV. Even with a new antenna & rotator setup outside and up high!)

While I suspect that it might be that PSR-800s may not need the added info for custom table(s)? to work properly I, like probably others, will most likely first just set up a `spare/semi-retired' PRO 2096/96 or PSR-500/600 for initial scanning or PRO96COM purposes. Especially if the custom table/tables can do the job thereby leaving the more `primary' newer scanners in use for the daily monitoring until all the `shaking down' / `bug swatting' of the new system has occured.

Anyway... Mucho thanks to Phil and the others down there for what has been done so far and ahead!

 

[scanlist]

So far finding that the pro96com logs showing .0625 steps is not so with this system but is 12.5 KHz.

So with that 1st table is:

CH Lo 0 CH Hi 4095 Base 806.0625 offset 0 Step 12.5

And works for the freqs below 856 MHz.
The second table is the same with the Base frequency being 811.000

So far no luck getting the radio to find the voice channel on 859.3875 with the second table.

Unitrunker shows both tables starting at channel 0 to 4095. Overlapping tables from first appearance. Where I'm stumped is getting the radio to recognize the second table. So with luck someone here may know the secret to getting this part of the equation solved.

 

[Steve2003]

I remember reading something a while back stating that Phase-2 couldn't be used for input/simplex frequencies. Essentially one Phase-2 output frequency will have two phase-1 input frequencies.

If you look at Arvada's site the two tables are the exact same with the exception of TableID, Bandwidth, & Slots. I am assuming that this means Pro96com calculates input frequencies with bandwidth & output frequencies with spacing....

FileVersion:7
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : 00A
System Name           : Denver Metro Area (formerly Lakewood PD / West Metro Fire / Wheat Ridge)
WACN                  : 924B3
Tower Number (Decimal): 21-21
Tower Number (Hex)    : T1515
Tower Description     : 
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : 
Timestamp             : Wed Dec 18 21:59:19 2013

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
08,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"00-0049","a",851.31250,"00-0049",806.31250,0,0
"00-0597","c",854.73750,"00-0597",809.73750,0,0
"00-0813","a",856.08750,"00-0813",811.08750,0,0
"00-1045","av",857.53750,"00-1045",812.53750,0,0
"00-1149","av",858.18750,"00-1149",813.18750,0,0
"00-1209","av",858.56250,"00-1209",858.56250,1,0
"00-1289","av",859.06250,"00-1289",859.06250,1,0
"00-1365","av",859.53750,"00-1365",814.53750,0,1

I was able to calculate frequencies with the following formula:


[output frequency] = Base + (ch x spacing)

DTRS Example:
-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"00-0099","v",851.62500,"00-0099",806.62500,0,2

851.625 = (99 x .00625) + 851.00625

Westy Example:
-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,806.06250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,811.00000,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"00-3600","cv",851.06250,"00-3600",806.06250,0,28
"01-3871","cvp",859.38750,"01-3871",814.38750,0,27

851.0625 = (3600 x .0125) + 806.0625

859.3875 = (3871 x .0125) + 811.000

Based on some research the P25 TableID determines Ch-Hi & Ch-Lo:
Ch-Lo = [P25 TableID] x 4096
Ch-Hi = Ch-Lo + 4095
Offset = Ch-Lo
(if you multiply by zero the world will end. Ch-Lo will be 0 for P25 TableID 0)

With that being said, the following should theoretically do the trick for Westy:

First Custom Table (P25 TableID 00):
Ch-Lo = 0
Ch-Hi = 4095
Offset = 0
Base = 806.0625
kHz step: 6.25

Second Custom Table (P25 TableID 01)
Ch-Lo = 4096
Ch-Hi = 8191
Offset = 4096
Base = 811.0000
kHz step: 6.25

Westy only has one frequency using P25 TableID #1. Perhaps they will use this as a Phase-2 frequency in the future?

-Steve