What Do You Think?

[Rishayan]

I am noticing a lot of VHF and UHF transmitters operating either unlicensed or with expired licenses. Does anybody really care? Does the FCC make any effort to enforce the law? In reality, as a dedicated DXer, it is very helpful to me to have the stations follow the law and be licensed, as it makes it so much easier to identify the transmitters. As I was researching a local private business repeater, to find out the output power of their transmitter, I could not find any listing in the FCC database. After more extensive research on the internet, I found that their license expired in 2002, however, they are still on the air. There are several public safety transmitters in this area operating unlicensed. Are they above the law? Why is it that some laws are aggressively and selectively enforced, like speeding or smoking dope, and others are ignored? Is that OK? Should we just ignore the unlicensed stations who flaunt the law and do nothing? What does the hobby community think?

 

[ecps92]

Before painting with a Broad Brush, how about some examples.

I've found that, depending on how you look them [again Broad topic of them] in the FCC you may/may not find them

IS this Public Safety ? sharing someone elses system ? Did they combine the call signs from prior listings ?

IS this business, that is using, License by Rule and/or Bubble pack channels ? where is was licensed before , but not needed now
IS this business Renting from a Radio Shop [where only the Show is licensed]

Which FCC URL and how are you looking, maybe the Large box store has a Nationwide [example - Staples] license, that will not be found locally...

Many questions to be answered before coming to a REAL answer or the ultimate answer of "DEPENDS"

I am noticing a lot of VHF and UHF transmitters operating either unlicensed or with expired licenses. Does anybody really care? Does the FCC make any effort to enforce the law? In reality, as a dedicated DXer, it is very helpful to me to have the stations follow the law and be licensed, as it makes it so much easier to identify the transmitters. As I was researching a local private business repeater, to find out the output power of their transmitter, I could not find any listing in the FCC database. After more extensive research on the internet, I found that their license expired in 2002, however, they are still on the air. There are several public safety transmitters in this area operating unlicensed. Are they above the law? Why is it that some laws are aggressively and selectively enforced, like speeding or smoking dope, and others are ignored? Is that OK? Should we just ignore the unlicensed stations who flaunt the law and do nothing? What does the hobby community think?

 

[MTS2000des]

The FCC is a joke.

I spent the last 4.5 months tracking down debilitating interference to my public safety trunked radio system. Under FCC rule part 90.219, only with written authorization can one operate a signal booster/BDA on part 90 protected spectrum. That didn't happen and some "get her done" piece of garbage installed by a "red box bandit" which, by the way, took over 2500 man hours across months of direction finding and good old fashioned street beating to find. The firms installing this hash and trash generators aren't two way radio shops, but low voltage contractors turning quick bucks without regard to best practices of RF engineering let alone giving a rat's behind about FCC rules such as 90.219.

We opened an interference case with the PSHB. An agent was assigned. They did contact us within 48 hours, but after I informed the agent of all relevant data including the EXACT location of the interference source, the response was "well, you found it. Great work. I am presuming you would like a sanction against the property owner?"

You can't make this stuff up. I explained that I was more concerned that a specific design firm using these subcontractors installing these BDA's on our radio systems without proper authorization and failing to engage the licensee in all testing which would prevent what we (and other public safety licensees are experiencing) from these installations. The response was "all enforcement action comes from DC" and as of yet, over a month later, zero follow up or enforcement action. Fortunately, the property owner was (and is) very cooperative and allowed us to lock out/tag out the improperly installed equipment and as soon as it was powered off, our interference ceased. But we also found out through the grapevine that 15 other installations throughout the area allegedly took place, and I learned last week that three other area trunking systems are being tore up from the floor up from illegal carriers manifesting itself the same way this system did on our system.

Where is the FCC? Too busy selling our radio spectrum to AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. They don't care. I truly am starting to believe that they WANT the LMR spectrum to become so unusable as to force everyone onto one of the commercial carrier networks as the end game. Remember, this is the same FCC that gave rubber stamp OET approvals to a lot of the noise generator one-chip wonder Chinese radios that flooded the market over the past decade and thus, many of those unlicensed users popping up across the part 90 and 97 spectrum is the end result, as well as piracy on part 90 and 97 repeaters.

Expired licenses? With practical little to no enforcement action, it's truly a consequence free autonomous zone on the airwaves. The only folks who get popped are those with money or high profile. Interfere with broadcast, commercial carriers? That's who get their attention.

The BDA/DAS problem is much bigger than I thought. When I posted my story on a professional forum, I was contacted by three fellow radio system manager/technicians who have advised me they have been battling similar issues for 3 years in their respective regions with "dead zones" in very populous areas created by competing BDA/DAS installs and the FCC has yet to assist or lift a finger.

The collective noise floor is going up. Soon everyone will be shouting to talk and everyone deaf. The FCC is a sell out to the wireless cartels. Change my mind.

 

[RaleighGuy]

I am noticing a lot of VHF and UHF transmitters operating either unlicensed or with expired licenses. Does anybody really care? Does the FCC make any effort to enforce the law?

How many radios are there in the USA? How much area is in the USA? You seriously think the FCC has enough manpower to monitor and verify every radio transmission and enforce the rules? Your example of enforcing speeding or smoking dope also falls short, as both happen on a regular basis and isn't discovered due to lack of manpower by police. Seriously, tell me you've never gone over the speed limit and didn't get caught!

FCC enforcement works (as does many calls to the police) from citizen tips and complaints, if people complain about interference due to unlicensed or unauthorized transmissions then the FCC looks into the matter. If no one complains no action is taken not for lack of enforcement but because the FCC isn't aware of the issue. The FCC is far from perfect granted, but your expectations are way to high for a government agency.

 

[MTS2000des]

I did all that. They have yet to take action. Our case is not exclusive. The excuse factory is in high gear. FCC enforcement has been cut back due to "budget cuts" for the past decade but yet, plenty of funding rolls in from the spectrum auctions.

We have public safety licensees with a true threat from these BDA/DAS bandits and the only real action from the FCC was releasing a public notice/order in November of 2019 reminding folks to "be kind, register your class B signal booster" and "get mom and dad's permission" but yet, cite some actual enforcement for this. I'll be patiently waiting.

Millions (literal numbers) of Chinese radios imported. Not to mention the dubious and erroneous FCC OET certifications issued to many of these. You really think the FCC "cares"?

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

 

[Rishayan]

The FCC is a joke.

I spent the last 4.5 months tracking down debilitating interference to my public safety trunked radio system. Under FCC rule part 90.219, only with written authorization can one operate a signal booster/BDA on part 90 protected spectrum. That didn't happen and some "get her done" piece of garbage installed by a "red box bandit" which, by the way, took over 2500 man hours across months of direction finding and good old fashioned street beating to find. The firms installing this hash and trash generators aren't two way radio shops, but low voltage contractors turning quick bucks without regard to best practices of RF engineering let alone giving a rat's behind about FCC rules such as 90.219.

We opened an interference case with the PSHB. An agent was assigned. They did contact us within 48 hours, but after I informed the agent of all relevant data including the EXACT location of the interference source, the response was "well, you found it. Great work. I am presuming you would like a sanction against the property owner?"

You can't make this stuff up. I explained that I was more concerned that a specific design firm using these subcontractors installing these BDA's on our radio systems without proper authorization and failing to engage the licensee in all testing which would prevent what we (and other public safety licensees are experiencing) from these installations. The response was "all enforcement action comes from DC" and as of yet, over a month later, zero follow up or enforcement action. Fortunately, the property owner was (and is) very cooperative and allowed us to lock out/tag out the improperly installed equipment and as soon as it was powered off, our interference ceased. But we also found out through the grapevine that 15 other installations throughout the area allegedly took place, and I learned last week that three other area trunking systems are being tore up from the floor up from illegal carriers manifesting itself the same way this system did on our system.

Where is the FCC? Too busy selling our radio spectrum to AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. They don't care. I truly am starting to believe that they WANT the LMR spectrum to become so unusable as to force everyone onto one of the commercial carrier networks as the end game. Remember, this is the same FCC that gave rubber stamp OET approvals to a lot of the noise generator one-chip wonder Chinese radios that flooded the market over the past decade and thus, many of those unlicensed users popping up across the part 90 and 97 spectrum is the end result, as well as piracy on part 90 and 97 repeaters.

Expired licenses? With practical little to no enforcement action, it's truly a consequence free autonomous zone on the airwaves. The only folks who get popped are those with money or high profile. Interfere with broadcast, commercial carriers? That's who get their attention.

The BDA/DAS problem is much bigger than I thought. When I posted my story on a professional forum, I was contacted by three fellow radio system manager/technicians who have advised me they have been battling similar issues for 3 years in their respective regions with "dead zones" in very populous areas created by competing BDA/DAS installs and the FCC has yet to assist or lift a finger.

The collective noise floor is going up. Soon everyone will be shouting to talk and everyone deaf. The FCC is a sell out to the wireless cartels. Change my mind.

Thank you for your response, and I agree with you 100%. Every day, we become more like Mexico, where everyone does as they please, and the "law" is just a minor interference. Well, I guess it just makes it more challenging for us DXers to identify what we are listening to, which, in reality, can be just part of the fun.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

I am noticing a lot of VHF and UHF transmitters operating either unlicensed or with expired licenses.

A lot? Like how many? I live in a large metropolitan area & scan VHF & UHF daily for new and excitingly mundane things to listen to. I've come across maybe 10 to 20? give or take "Expired" or "Cancelled" but still operating. Not like it's a huge rampant problem (at least in my area). Perhaps some of the "unlicensed" you are hearing are common or itinerant or their license may not come back to the immediate area?

 

[Rishayan]

A lot? Like how many? I live in a large metropolitan area & scan VHF & UHF daily for new and excitingly mundane things to listen to. I know of maybe 10 to 20? give or take "Expired" or "Cancelled" but still operating. Not like it's a huge rampant problem (at least in my area). Perhaps some of the "unlicensed" you are hearing are common or itinerant & their license may not come back to the immediate area?

No, they are mostly local fire departments that operate low power repeaters. It doesn't really bother me, however, if they were licensed, it would make it a lot easier to determine where the signal is coming from. But, of course, if the few can get away with it, then why should any other fire department or public safety agency bother to pay the money, and go through the red tape, to get a license? However, the challenge of identifying these stations is part of the fun of DXing and studying communications.

 

[ecps92]

As asked in Post#2 - examples PLEASE before painting with the power-washer

No, they are mostly local fire departments that operate low power repeaters. It doesn't really bother me, however, if they were licensed, it would make it a lot easier to determine where the signal is coming from. But, of course, if the few can get away with it, then why should any other fire department or public safety agency bother to pay the money, and go through the red tape, to get a license? However, the challenge of identifying these stations is part of the fun of DXing and studying communications.

 

[MTS2000des]

As a DX'er and radio enthusiast, you can certainly be an asset in aiding us resolve interference. I mean, it isn't like the 1970's CB radio films like "Convoy" or "Handle with Care" where FCC field agents drove around in Chester vans with antennas rolling up on rogue CB'ers with linear amps.
Today, RFIM falls on the shoulders of the victims.

This is a real opportunity to build a bridge between the radio enthusiast/hobbyist/scanner community and your local part 90 public safety licensees.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

As a DX'er and radio enthusiast, you can certainly be an asset in aiding us resolve interference.

I smell a new reality TV series. "RFI HUNTERS "

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I dealt with Enterprise Wireless a few years back regarding a MotoTrbo IP multi site system and was advised by the coordinator to "scan for clear frequencies" because there were so many unlicensed in the Ft Lauderdale area. Taken aback, I said wouldn't it be better just to coordinate us within what is licensed and if we have interference, then get the FCC involved? What a concept? The FCC does actively enforce in that area, only for FM radio pirates. I found in my due diligence that my own client had a repeater on one of the highest buildings in the area, license expired, had operated that way for decades. There were two associated users, both thought the other held the license.

 

[Rishayan]

OK, I just discovered something, it appears the FCC database on radio reference is not working.

 

[N8YX]

The FCC is a joke right up until you fire up an unlicensed BCB transmitter and start playing anything on the air that the RIAA claims copyrights to.

Then they'll jam you up most ricky-tick immediately after their corporate masters are done howling at them.

 

[AM909]

OK, I just discovered something, it appears the FCC database on radio reference is not working.

There's a maintenance window, maybe on Thursday mornings? Also, the RR FCC database does not include everything, like paging (and paging-turned-LMR) frequencies. Try this or this. Those are down at various times, too.

 

[Floridarailfanning]

The FCC is a joke.

I spent the last 4.5 months tracking down debilitating interference to my public safety trunked radio system. Under FCC rule part 90.219, only with written authorization can one operate a signal booster/BDA on part 90 protected spectrum. That didn't happen and some "get her done" piece of garbage installed by a "red box bandit" which, by the way, took over 2500 man hours across months of direction finding and good old fashioned street beating to find. The firms installing this hash and trash generators aren't two way radio shops, but low voltage contractors turning quick bucks without regard to best practices of RF engineering let alone giving a rat's behind about FCC rules such as 90.219.

We opened an interference case with the PSHB. An agent was assigned. They did contact us within 48 hours, but after I informed the agent of all relevant data including the EXACT location of the interference source, the response was "well, you found it. Great work. I am presuming you would like a sanction against the property owner?"

You can't make this stuff up. I explained that I was more concerned that a specific design firm using these subcontractors installing these BDA's on our radio systems without proper authorization and failing to engage the licensee in all testing which would prevent what we (and other public safety licensees are experiencing) from these installations. The response was "all enforcement action comes from DC" and as of yet, over a month later, zero follow up or enforcement action. Fortunately, the property owner was (and is) very cooperative and allowed us to lock out/tag out the improperly installed equipment and as soon as it was powered off, our interference ceased. But we also found out through the grapevine that 15 other installations throughout the area allegedly took place, and I learned last week that three other area trunking systems are being tore up from the floor up from illegal carriers manifesting itself the same way this system did on our system.

Where is the FCC? Too busy selling our radio spectrum to AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. They don't care. I truly am starting to believe that they WANT the LMR spectrum to become so unusable as to force everyone onto one of the commercial carrier networks as the end game. Remember, this is the same FCC that gave rubber stamp OET approvals to a lot of the noise generator one-chip wonder Chinese radios that flooded the market over the past decade and thus, many of those unlicensed users popping up across the part 90 and 97 spectrum is the end result, as well as piracy on part 90 and 97 repeaters.

Expired licenses? With practical little to no enforcement action, it's truly a consequence free autonomous zone on the airwaves. The only folks who get popped are those with money or high profile. Interfere with broadcast, commercial carriers? That's who get their attention.

The BDA/DAS problem is much bigger than I thought. When I posted my story on a professional forum, I was contacted by three fellow radio system manager/technicians who have advised me they have been battling similar issues for 3 years in their respective regions with "dead zones" in very populous areas created by competing BDA/DAS installs and the FCC has yet to assist or lift a finger.

The collective noise floor is going up. Soon everyone will be shouting to talk and everyone deaf. The FCC is a sell out to the wireless cartels. Change my mind.

It seems like a certain portion of the blame is on the AHJ's, considering they are the ones requiring the building owners to install these systems to begin with. Are they conducting "legitimate" walk-throughs? Are they verifying that the installing technician was GROL certified? Did they verify who notified the licensee?

The FCC has unequivocally dropped the ball for Part 90 licensees, however, if the AHJ's were doing their inspections correctly wouldn't most of this crap be a non-issue?

 

[12dbsinad]

The BDA/DAS problem is much bigger than I thought. When I posted my story on a professional forum, I was contacted by three fellow radio system manager/technicians who have advised me they have been battling similar issues for 3 years in their respective regions with "dead zones" in very populous areas created by competing BDA/DAS installs and the FCC has yet to assist or lift a finger.

The collective noise floor is going up. Soon everyone will be shouting to talk and everyone deaf. The FCC is a sell out to the wireless cartels. Change my mind.

As soon as I read about the NFPA recommendation for BDA's I knew LMR was going to be in trouble. The NFPA is another joke but that's for another discussion. BDA's are way to much of a sensitive piece of equipment to just throw in a building by some yahoo. Then you have to factor in another yahoo coming in for a remodel and moving antenna's around in the ceiling tiles or better yet just cutting them and taking them out. The more that get put out there the more the problem.

Why do you think cellular wanted them banded?

 

[dlwtrunked]

I am noticing a lot of VHF and UHF transmitters operating either unlicensed or with expired licenses. Does anybody really care? Does the FCC make any effort to enforce the law? In reality, as a dedicated DXer, it is very helpful to me to have the stations follow the law and be licensed, as it makes it so much easier to identify the transmitters. As I was researching a local private business repeater, to find out the output power of their transmitter, I could not find any listing in the FCC database. After more extensive research on the internet, I found that their license expired in 2002, however, they are still on the air. There are several public safety transmitters in this area operating unlicensed. Are they above the law? Why is it that some laws are aggressively and selectively enforced, like speeding or smoking dope, and others are ignored? Is that OK? Should we just ignore the unlicensed stations who flaunt the law and do nothing? What does the hobby community think?

Often licensees make changes and the call sign changes. You may miss that. In addition, sometimes licenses appear in the wrong place as say 123.45 MHz may actually appear in the FCC database as 123.45 kHz but the FCC has gotten better at catching that. Locally hear in VA, I know of one case where a license expired years ago but not noted as the contractor probably told the entity nothing about needing to renew it. In another case, the location is incorrectly listed as being more than 50 miles from the actual side due to the contractor putting his address instead of the transmitter address.

 

[dwhit29689]

NFPA Fire Code Changes: BDA System Testing will Required in All Florida Buildings by 2022
I can see this being a monster during an earthquake/weather/EMP event.

 

[MTS2000des]

It seems like a certain portion of the blame is on the AHJ's, considering they are the ones requiring the building owners to install these systems to begin with. Are they conducting "legitimate" walk-throughs? Are they verifying that the installing technician was GROL certified? Did they verify who notified the licensee?

The FCC has unequivocally dropped the ball for Part 90 licensees, however, if the AHJ's were doing their inspections correctly wouldn't most of this crap be a non-issue?

Yeah but you can't expect a fire bat chief to have the skill set, IB Wave software and training (which ain't cheap), and the time to do a real sign off. Let's face it: this is where many LMR shops are needed but as discussed, they often don't have real actual technical SME's who understand the delicate balance that is BDA/DAS and black art of not trashing the tight metrics of modern digital simulcast systems. Some of these shops are guilty of putting in these Chinese red boxes the same way they toss up MotoTRBO repeaters with flat pack duplexers and LMR400 on itinerant pairs and walk away.

Bottom line: they walk around a building with a portable and key up a few times and say "can you hear me now?" and sign off because they don't want the political heat of holding up a COO because some "radio guy" says there MIGHT be interference.

90.219 spells out what SHOULD be done but with zero enforcement, it's like everything else that flows out of that useless agency: hot air. As mentioned, put a pirate FM station on the air or interfere with a telecom cartel's spectrum, the wrath of God comes down on one. Otherwise, figure out your own interference and use other resources (like prosecuting folks under state law/ordinances if so equipped) or do what everyone else does: crank up the power and add to the noise floor.