SDS100/SDS200: What is the difference with all the filters in the sds100 scanner?

[werinshades]

I often change filters on the run secondary to changing RF conditions. Although we all agree that what works for one isn't going to work for another and it is location-specific with regard to your environment, I have actually seen a pattern. First of all I have never seen no filter at all improve anything, the normal filter which is called normal for a reason usually does well.

I have seen though the pattern of, wide normal improving VHF high performance and wide invert working best on tdma Phase ll systems. In my particular area, Aviation frequencies are deaf unless I apply IFX to every one, leaving normal as the global setting of course. That doesn't apply to military Aviation frequencies. Default normal works best for them.

Our monitoring situations are very similar and I use the same filter settings for most systems you mention.

 

[trentbob]

Our monitoring situations are very similar and I use the same filter settings for most systems you mention.

Yep, I really think there is something to that as I have seen other post that are similar to ours.

 

[Ubbe]

One thing to remember are that if signal levels are at -70dBm or stronger like -60dBm then always use the 20dB attenuator setting to help the receiver and reduce the possibilities of mixing products. A good receive level to aim at would be -90dBm to -70dBm. Using Normal and Invert will reduce the signal by 6-10dB that equals half the attenuator setting and will also help to fight overload problems. If receiving weak signals at -100dBm and weaker then try to run the Off setting that has least attenuation and if you then get interference problems then try IFX as the first option.

/Ubbe

 

[One13Truck]

Yep, I really think there is something to that as I have seen other post that are similar to ours.

I’ve seen similar listed for quite a few people. Currently a lot here that I care about listening to is still conventional VHF and UHF and I’ll flip on air and rail if I’m really bored. I’m only listening to one P25 system at the moment as I wait for my county’s new P25 system to start testing for a cutover. So what’s working for me now may be completely different in a few months.

But with everyone’s locations and listening needs different whatever works for everyone.

 

[Ensnared]

Last Sunday there was a thread BCD436HP VS SDS100 re Missed Transmissions. My post number 6 could not be clearer in explaining how to apply filters.

I believe I read that post, but I've been a bit overwhelmed with reading this stuff. Your posts are very helpful. I am still attempting to understand how to read: A) D-error ranges, variable depending on who is talking. Dispatch hovers around 0, but improves outside. Mobile units have higher values; B) RSSI value range. Please, excuse my dense brain. I am going to go back and review your post as well as others regarding a "measurement-based" optimal filter setting.

 

[trentbob]

I believe I read that post, but I've been a bit overwhelmed with reading this stuff. Your posts are very helpful. I am still attempting to understand how to read: A) D-error ranges, variable depending on who is talking. Dispatch hovers around 0, but improves outside. Mobile units have higher values; B) RSSI value range. Please, excuse my dense brain. I am going to go back and review your post as well as others regarding a "measurement-based" optimal filter setting.

You know everybody has a different idea. It does get very confusing. Some people say that RSSI is not good to go by because noise can give you more bars but honestly that's what I use. Error rate should improve with a better filter but you can't use error rate with the conventional item. Some swear by noise rate. What you can do is go by all the numbers but, count on... Your ears LOL.

 

[Ensnared]

You know everybody has a different idea. It does get very confusing. Some people say that RSSI is not good to go by because noise can give you more bars but honestly that's what I use. Error rate should improve with a better filter but you can't use error rate with the conventional item. Some swear by noise rate. What you can do is go by all the numbers but, count on... Your ears LOL.

So, zero is good for an error rate? I still don't know if this means mobile or base. Should you determine filter performance by using dispatch alone? I might have missed it, but what RSSI number is optimal?

 

[trentbob]

Yes 0 is a good error rate. Error rate is is the amount of Digital Data that decodes without error. It's not an indicator of reception, it is an indicator of quality.

RSSI is an indicator of signal strength. The way you read it on these radios is the lower the number, the better. A good number to have is in the 70s and 80s, once you start getting over 100 you are in the weeds.

Error rate is used when trying to find an optimal filter on a system. It can't be used on a conventional object obviously because you're not decoding a system. When you refer to dispatcher only I'm not sure what you're talking about, you are evaluating a system no matter who's talking, nobody has to be talking if you are locked onto a control Channel of a site. The site is where you will apply the filter.

Obviously with a conventional item you have to wait till someone talks and assess the RSSI.

When your question came over I was actually adjusting the filters on a system I installed this morning secondary to the storm and it was so fast and easy. I went to Global filters and checked wide normal, wide invert and invert. I was quickly able to see the best reception indicators so I returned the global to normal where it belongs and went into the site and applied the filter I got the best results on. It took me less than a minute. The next time I hook up to the computer I will transfer the data from my radio to my profile and it will save all of the changes I manually made on the radio.

I am a big believer in the KISS. principle.

 

[Ensnared]

Yes 0 is a good error rate. Error rate is is the amount of Digital Data that decodes without error. It's not an indicator of reception, it is an indicator of quality.

RSSI is an indicator of signal strength. The way you read it on these radios is the lower the number, the better. A good number to have is in the 70s and 80s, once you start getting over 100 you are in the weeds.

Error rate is used when trying to find an optimal filter on a system. It can't be used on a conventional object obviously because you're not decoding a system. When you refer to dispatcher only I'm not sure what you're talking about, you are evaluating a system no matter who's talking, nobody has to be talking if you are locked onto a control Channel of a site. The site is where you will apply the filter.

Obviously with a conventional item you have to wait till someone talks and assess the RSSI.

When your question came over I was actually adjusting the filters on a system I installed this morning secondary to the storm and it was so fast and easy. I went to Global filters and checked wide normal, wide invert and invert. I was quickly able to see the best reception indicators so I returned the global to normal where it belongs and went into the site and applied the filter I got the best results on. It took me less than a minute. The next time I hook up to the computer I will transfer the data from my radio to my profile and it will save all of the changes I manually made on the radio.

I am a big believer in the KISS. principle.

When you make a change in the radio menu for "Global Auto Filter" are you parking the radio on a particular trunking system? If this is true, it would really help fine tune the radio for various filters. I was under the impression that changing this meant that everything in the radio would follow suit since the word "global" is present.

If I was able to finally get things in order, I could shoot this from the radio into Sentinel and save the changes, fingers are crossed.

What is the "KISS principle?" I don't know if it is related to the group since it is in caps.

When I went to Houston, I changed the radio to wide invert. It worked very well. I also added "use NAC" in my profile. My 436HP was sitting idle beside me. From what I've read, Houston is a rather cumbersome system to monitor and program.

Thank you so much for being patient with me.

 

[trentbob]

No problem, The KISS principal is an old navy term, keep it simple stupid, in today's PC bizarro world, in corporate, they say keep it simple and straight. In other words don't make it any more complicated than you have to LOL.

Yes you are doing the changes on the radio so as to be able to hear real-time results of reception indicators. Regardless of what people say you do not want to be adjusting filters on Sentinel. You always want to transfer your data card to your profile first thing anytime you hook up to the computer because, for example, I do a lot of changes directly on the radio all the time and they're kept in the radio but if you hook up to Sentinel and don't transfer those changes when you add or remove something on Sentinel and then transfer the data in your profile back to the radio it will replace all of your changes you made on the radio with what you already had in Sentinel.

Just to clear up the confusion, again, Global filters will be applied every object in the radio unless you have gone in prior and changed a filter directly on a site of a system or in Department options on a conventional item.

You should never change Global filters to accommodate one system because you may compromise reception on other objects in the radio that work best on normal which is default on global. Filters are meant to be for troubleshooting a problematic system or object, they don't have to be changed on everything on the radio, default normal usually works well.

Global filters are just there to quickly sample filters on something you're trying to improve. Then you return Global to normal and apply the optimal filter to either a site of a system or the department of a conventional object using the menu and the keyboard. You can find yourself doing this on the run because conditions or location have changed so it's good to have a consistent, uniform and organized way of doing this.

 

[trentbob]

And to answer your question, yes you are sitting on a system, locked on a control channel of the site you have chosen to be the one you want to monitor on that system as you sample Global filters, you already know what normal does, you sample wide normal, wide invert and invert. If you want to sample no filter at all you can do that too but rarely is that optimal in today's world. The reason you don't sample Auto filters is because it slows scanning way down as it samples all of the filters in its category. HTH

 

[Ensnared]

And to answer your question, yes you are sitting on a system, locked on a control channel of the site you have chosen to be the one you want to monitor on that system as you sample Global filters, you already know what normal does, you sample wide normal, wide invert and invert. If you want to sample no filter at all you can do that too but rarely is that optimal in today's world. The reason you don't sample Auto filters is because it slows scanning way down as it samples all of the filters in its category. HTH

How do you park on a CC? I don't ever recall seeing any of these during operations. I suppose the CC is present in the detailed version of the display settings. Thanks, this cleared up some things in my foggy mind.

 

[trentbob]

If I could ask. Do you have labeled, numbered favorite lists with quick keys assigned so that you can enable and disable lists that you are using? Have you avoided all of the unnecessary sites on the systems that you listen to so that you're only listening to one or two of them and not rolling through a lot of sites?

Yes you should be using the detailed screen so as to be able to see all of these values that we have been talking about. Personally I have cleared my displays of most of the information so they are not cluttered at all but while you are learning you want all the information available. For example, before fooling with filters you should have the filter display indicator on your screen.

When you hold on a talk group of a system and you are getting a signal it is because you are locked onto the control channel of a site.

Not sure what level you're on with your radio but you won't be able to apply filters permanently to systems and conventional objects without having established numbered favorites list. Just want to make sure that you have all the basic fundamentals down before tackling filters.

 

[Ensnared]

Is this what you mean? I toggle start up keys on a frequent basis. If I happen to put more than one trunking system in a Favorite, I will place a number beside the alpha tag (i.e., .00, .01, .02..............).

I have set my 436HP and SDS 100 like an old banked scanner. I toggle Favorites on/off.

 

[trentbob]

Is this what you mean? I toggle start up keys on a frequent basis. If I happen to put more than one trunking system in a Favorite, I will place a number beside the alpha tag (i.e., .00, .01, .02..............).

I have set my 436HP and SDS 100 like an old banked scanner. I toggle Favorites on/off.

Yeah as long as you have favorites list then you should be able to drill down on the menu to apply filters to just the few sites of one system.

 

[jgorman21]

Now I’m confused even more! What is the best way for me to “start over?“. I had tried adjusting some stuff on the radio. Initially, I thought it was better. Then doing “side by side“ comparisons with several different scanners the SDS 100 (super-deaf-scanner) seems even more deaf!

After reading it back to Sentinel, it was worse. So….I tried tweaking some filters in Sentinel. Truthfully, not much better!

FYI. The older scanners blowing this expensive radio away are an old Pro-83 and a PSR 500. To clarify, this is listening on VHF Lo and High and UHF Conventional stuff in general.

During all of this I have not adjusted anything on Sentinel for any simulcast systems. They work “ok”? But not as well as my G5…just ok.

I went back into Sentinel this morning and turned filters “off“ for these conventional items. Then on the radio I put the global filter to “normal!” Hearing some things now. Still not hearing New York State DOT which are on low band and 450Mhz. Not a peep! Meanwhile, the old scanners are chiing away!

Ive had radios since I was a kid in the 60’s. I’ve figured out ham hat’s with software and other scanners. This whole operation has proven itself to be very frustrating. And very “un-user friendly” IMHO anyway.

Very open to learning about this from square one again! Any help is appreciated.

 

[werinshades]

Filters are and have been very confusing here for many so you're not alone. Since you seem open to working on getting this to work, I'll offer up some suggestions from one who has many analog systems programmed in both my SDS100 & SDS200.

Chicago has 450 & 460 Mhz. systems in use, and I monitor by local suburbs in the 470 Mhz. band. I don't have any suggested remedies on VHF-Lo but maybe these will help. First...the filters. You might know this already, but when you adjust filters they can be done by site/department or globally (which effects the entire scanner). If you're making an adjustment at the Department level, it will override the Global setting. If you set the Department to Global, only then will it accept the Global setting.

For me personally, to monitor analog systems I set my Modulation to FM from Auto (which is the default setting). I don't know the technical reason why this works, but it does. The same x36hp scanners that were receiving analog fairly well, my SDS scanners now exceed the reception, so yes their is hope. If this setting is used, you will notice the audio is lower on your analog channels. Simple solution...Volume Offset +2 or +3 and you should see an improvement.

As I read, you've experimented with the filters without much luck. I'd recommend Wide Invert or Wide Normal settings. Many of us here with challenging environments seem to have better luck using them, once again I don't know the technical reason for it. First try it at Department/Site level, and if you find these settings work best, change the setting to Global, and in the scanner menu change the Global Setting to whichever works best. Experimentation is the only way to go on this.

I would repeat this on the simulcast system that seems to be sketchy. For that, you'll have to drill down to the Site level. And...as you've been doing, once you're done, Read the Scanner into Sentinel and save it.

 

[trentbob]

Now I’m confused even more! What is the best way for me to “start over?“. I had tried adjusting some stuff on the radio. Initially, I thought it was better. Then doing “side by side“ comparisons with several different scanners the SDS 100 (super-deaf-scanner) seems even more deaf!

After reading it back to Sentinel, it was worse. So….I tried tweaking some filters in Sentinel. Truthfully, not much better!

FYI. The older scanners blowing this expensive radio away are an old Pro-83 and a PSR 500. To clarify, this is listening on VHF Lo and High and UHF Conventional stuff in general.

During all of this I have not adjusted anything on Sentinel for any simulcast systems. They work “ok”? But not as well as my G5…just ok.

I went back into Sentinel this morning and turned filters “off“ for these conventional items. Then on the radio I put the global filter to “normal!” Hearing some things now. Still not hearing New York State DOT which are on low band and 450Mhz. Not a peep! Meanwhile, the old scanners are chiing away!

Ive had radios since I was a kid in the 60’s. I’ve figured out ham hat’s with software and other scanners. This whole operation has proven itself to be very frustrating. And very “un-user friendly” IMHO anyway.

Very open to learning about this from square one again! Any help is appreciated.

As time-consuming as it is, you might want to read this entire thread, it explains how you adjust filters on the radio itself so as to sample real-time results of reception indicators. It's all there.

 

[jgorman21]

As time-consuming as it is, you might want to read this entire thread, it explains how you adjust filters on the radio itself so as to sample real-time results of reception indicators. It's all there.

Ok. Probably best for me to print it out. Write some notes. Seems crazy to me (not you or anybodys fault) that a radio that is so costly doesn’t come in better basic working order and with better instructions included.

Thank you kindly for responding. I’ll comb over this Carefully.

One last question. If I’m back to doing this from the radio, where should I set those filters I changed in Sentinel?

 

[jgorman21]

Filters are and have been very confusing here for many so you're not alone. Since you seem open to working on getting this to work, I'll offer up some suggestions from one who has many analog systems programmed in both my SDS100 & SDS200.

Chicago has 450 & 460 Mhz. systems in use, and I monitor by local suburbs in the 470 Mhz. band. I don't have any suggested remedies on VHF-Lo but maybe these will help. First...the filters. You might know this already, but when you adjust filters they can be done by site/department or globally (which effects the entire scanner). If you're making an adjustment at the Department level, it will override the Global setting. If you set the Department to Global, only then will it accept the Global setting.

For me personally, to monitor analog systems I set my Modulation to FM from Auto (which is the default setting). I don't know the technical reason why this works, but it does. The same x36hp scanners that were receiving analog fairly well, my SDS scanners now exceed the reception, so yes their is hope. If this setting is used, you will notice the audio is lower on your analog channels. Simple solution...Volume Offset +2 or +3 and you should see an improvement.

As I read, you've experimented with the filters without much luck. I'd recommend Wide Invert or Wide Normal settings. Many of us here with challenging environments seem to have better luck using them, once again I don't know the technical reason for it. First try it at Department/Site level, and if you find these settings work best, change the setting to Global, and in the scanner menu change the Global Setting to whichever works best. Experimentation is the only way to go on this.

I would repeat this on the simulcast system that seems to be sketchy. For that, you'll have to drill down to the Site level. And...as you've been doing, once you're done, Read the Scanner into Sentinel and save it.

Thank you also for your kind response! Illlook at this again later this afternoon!