Where to get help mapping Motorola programming fields to CHIRP?

[buddrousa]

Hi folks,

I'm an almost complete newbie to radios (I remember being amazed as a kid in the 70's by WWV and the "number" stations on Dad's old SW rig, and I tagged along with Grandad when he did S&R drills by CB VUE meter with his buds).

So, I'm the IT/tech guy at my local volunteer fire department and was handed a Baofeng radio and asked to "make it work". (We want our "support services" folks to be able to communicate on the fireground amongst themselves, and have the ability to talk to County and other mutual aid departments should the need arise -- mostly simplex, but a little duplex repeater stuff too) I've discovered CHIRP and messed around with it and can scan some channels... and with all this research I think I'm "catching the bug" -- considering getting an Amateur license, looking into SDR, etc.

Anyway, I was more recently given a printout of the channel list table (80 channels) from the department's Motorola gear. I think I've got the basics, but I'm getting hung up trying to translate all the fields for PL and DPL (TX and RX) to CHIRP's Tone Mode, ToneSql, DTCS Polarity, etc etc etc. And then there's the "Personality" and "Channel Announcment" stuff on the Motorola list (mostly all the same) that I am not sure what to do with.

Is this the place to ask these? Should I be using a different forum?

Many thanks,

1st I am a 36 year fulltime Firefighter that has an electronics background with ties to a fulltime 2way radio shop that I worked in for a few years on my days off and maintain our department radios and help the radio shop keep up the county trunking system.
#1 If chirp programs it the radio has no use and will not hold up in a house fire.
#2 If you set the radio up and God forbid one of your departments firefighter is hurt or killed OSHA will come after you.
#3 If you were not aware NFPA is starting to set standards for firefighter radio speaker mikes ect.
#4 If you are being over charged by your radio shop then find a new radio shop.

 

[plarkinjr]

Yeah, I'm still here, haven't given up hope, I understand many of you are trying to help, and will post more details later....

1st I am a 36 year fulltime Firefighter that has an electronics background with ties to a fulltime 2way radio shop that I worked in for a few years on my days off and maintain our department radios and help the radio shop keep up the county trunking system.
#1 If chirp programs it the radio has no use and will not hold up in a house fire.
#2 If you set the radio up and God forbid one of your departments firefighter is hurt or killed OSHA will come after you.
#3 If you were not aware NFPA is starting to set standards for firefighter radio speaker mikes ect.
#4 If you are being over charged by your radio shop then find a new radio shop.

Thanks buddrousa,
#1 perhaps so, in which case we want to a) find something that we can program ourselves, and not lock into a vendor (See #4) and b) never intended to send any non-fire-rated radio into an active house fire (See #3).
#2 probably, and everybody else for any number of perceived sins.
#3 yes, we know -- See #1
#4 something like that, but not quite that simple, and more easily said then done.


I am composing a separate subpost for this thread which I hope better explains the situation and helps calm some of y'all's concerns. I know there are no secret frequencies, and I will share some selected details in that subsequent post.

Thanks!

 

[buddrousa]

You also understand you need written permission from every agency if you program their frequencies in your radios. But all radios need to be tested after programmed to make sure your radios are not off frequency power and deviation are set corrected before put in service. If you can find a local person to help tutor you in RF would also be a great help to you. Many of us here that have posted work for work in the 2way industry and just have your best interest in mind.

 

[plarkinjr]

Way more detail (maybe more than you wanted)

Folks,
I appreciate your concern, and indeed I'm smarter now about FCC than before I started this thread. I guess I over simplified with "make it work", but the motivation is not to make THIS radio work, but to investigate how we can better control our own destiny. I was intentionally brief originally because I did not think you'd read a big long posts. And I'm reluctant to give out much info about the department to protect the innocent (or perhaps guilty). Lets just say Small-town politics, a "radio shop" with issues, and the local belief that Motorola is the only manufacturer of radios, and leave it at that. Word travels fast around here, and gets exaggerated by the minute. I would not be surprised if someone in town will ask me about this post next week.

We are an all volunteer fire department in very rural area, no funding other than grants and donations. 4 hydrants within half a mile of the station, but our AO is about 50 sq miles. 20 mile round trip calls are the norm. Cellular service is spotty. We have a couple dozen members, serviceable structural PPE for 40%, wildland PPE for 60%, portable radios for 50%. Those who don't have PPE are "Support Services". These members can do other incident tasks like drive/operate water tender/tanker or pumper engines, manage the "swimming pool" portable tank, interface with highway department, property owners, other agencies, manage/operate our station as an emergency shelter, traffic control, field repair equipment. During non-incident, these folks pursue grants, pay bills, file reports, coordinate vehicle maintenance, and research things like equipment vendors, radio maintenance, website, fundraising... (hopefully now "Support Services" is less suspicious for many of you.) I AM a volunteer & member of the department, though I don't don SCBA and enter structure fires, I respond to calls where I am able to contribute. If you need to verify my identity, PM me and I can point you at state & federal public records.

Said "Baofeng" radio is personal property of a member, so a "free" resource to use in proof-of-concept. I get it now, they're crap. All of this is not really relevant to the question of whether we can get the channels on our motorolas into CHIRP. We are trying to figure out if there are off-the-shelf radios (be it Chicom or Kenwood, or whatever), we can program ourselves without proprietary software (CHIRP or otherwise) to affordably outfit key support services staff ASAP. We also plan to start phasing out these Moto's and move into new radios for each person with PPE (preferably with the characteristics I just mentioned, and fire-rated of course).

We have 2 FCC licenses: an "IG" in the low 170s , and a "PW" on 155 and 159 ranges. I believe the motorolas are XTS1500s, and the batteries are discontinued. Most have all 80 channels programmed (some duplicated across the zones, and some incorrectly, and inconsistently between units). Frequencies range from 153 to 173. There are other agencies on UHF (in the 450s) which we would like to at least hear their traffic, but can't with these Motos. I know there are no secret frequencies, but if I share all 80, I worry we'll be identified (see first paragraph above). So, here are some selected cut/paste lines from the motorola print out with the agency names left off.




Announcement Personality Type Personality RX Freq RX Squelch Type RX PL Freq RX PL Code RX DPL Code RX DPL Inv TX Freq TX Sqlch Type TX PL Freq
n/a CNV 4 154.02500 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 159.14250 PL 131.8
n/a CNV 4 154.14500 PL 110.9 2Z n/a n/a 154.14500 PL 110.9
n/a CNV 4 154.16000 PL 100.0 1Z n/a n/a 154.16000 PL 100.0
n/a CNV 4 154.18250 DPL n/a n/a 464 x 151.20500 DPL n/a
n/a CNV 4 154.30250 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 154.30250 PL 156.7
n/a CNV 4 154.32500 PL 110.9 2Z n/a n/a 153.77000 PL 110.9
n/a CNV 4 154.37000 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 158.82000 PL 131.8
n/a CNV 4 154.40000 DPL n/a n/a 261 X 153.85250 DPL n/a
n/a CNV 4 155.01000 PL 110.9 2Z n/a n/a 156.03000 PL 110.9
n/a CNV 4 155.31000 PL 110.9 2Z n/a n/a 154.83000 PL 110.9
n/a CNV 4 155.34000 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 155.34000 PL 156.7
n/a CNV 4 155.37000 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 154.95000 PL 156.7
n/a CNV 4 155.59500 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 155.59500 PL 131.8
n/a CNV 4 155.68500 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 154.77000 PL 167.9
n/a CNV 4 155.75250 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 155.75250 PL 156.7
n/a CNV 4 155.85000 PL 162.2 5B n/a n/a 154.80000 PL 162.2
n/a CNV 4 158.74500 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 158.74500 PL 131.8
n/a CNV 4 159.28500 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 159.28500 PL 156.7
n/a CNV 4 159.39000 PL 131.8 3B n/a n/a 156.12000 PL 131.8
n/a CNV 4 160.14000 PL 225.7 M4 n/a n/a 154.48250 PL 225.7
n/a CNV 4 160.32000 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 160.32000 off n/a
n/a CNV 4 161.14500 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a 161.14500 off n/a
n/a CNV 1 162.50000 CSQ n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a
n/a CNV 4 173.37500 CSQ NA NA n/a n/a 173.37500 PL 82.5




PS @buddrousa I assume we have written permission for all of these agencies, based on tradition and hand-shake.... but you're right its not enough to assume. And some of these are 2 hours away, so aside from taking them all on a 4 hours journey to test them, do you have a suggestion how to accomplish this?

 

[buddrousa]

NP you can buy Kenwood Radios Software and Programming cables from most Kenwood Vendors and do your own basic work. But if I were you I would visit every Agency Director Chief or what ever title they go by just to touch base with them that way they know and approve of the radio programming you may find you a tutor to help you or they be making changes you do not know about and share new information with you. The above will just cover your but even better. You will not find sub $100 radios from Kenwood or others that make commercial radios.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The CHIRP thing is a bit of a red herring. That requirement is going to limit the models and quality of radios available.

If you stick to one radio model, the software requirements should be simplified.

There are other vendors such as Kenwood and ICOM who make less expensive Part 90 radios that are narrow band capable.

Pay attention to specifications like:

EIA/TIA-603D or latest, these are Minimum electrical specifications required to assure reliable communications.

And

Mil810D , these are mechanical and environmental specs that ensure the product will operate under extreme conditions.

Or

IP67 as with Mil810D. Environmental specs, waterproofing etc.

The radio catalog sheets should include these specs. If they don't, look at different models and/or vendor.

As far as Federal Grants, many require P25 capability and unfortunately, the grant funds do not come close to covering the increased cost of P25. Be prepared to write a justification letter that explains why P25 is unnecessary.

Identify several different vendor radio models that meet the specifications you require and put out a bid spec to buy a quantity of them including spares and software. If your procurement rules require "or equivalent" be very strict about specifying minimum specifications.


















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[K4EET]

plarkinjr,

Thanks for your "lengthy" post. You gave us some good info to chew on. One question I have, so we don't spin our wheels suggesting things, other than an $18 Baofeng HT, is there a ballpark budget per radio for when you implement the plan? Are we looking at $200, $400, $800, etc. realistically? What do you think the budget could handle? If the radio can be a plain-jane Part 90 HT, you might get away for a lesser amount than if the radio had to meet all kinds of specifications, be intrinsically safe, etc. Your support person manning the "swimming pool" may actually need a fire-rated HT because of an explosive environment, etc. But anyway... Can you toss out just a WAG on the cost per radio that you think would be reasonable for your agency? Thanks!

Cheers! Dave

 

[buddrousa]

Folks,

PS @buddrousa I assume we have written permission for all of these agencies, based on tradition and hand-shake.... but you're right its not enough to assume. And some of these are 2 hours away, so aside from taking them all on a 4 hours journey to test them, do you have a suggestion how to accomplish this?

Well you could buy a good watt meter that will be needed for installs and a good used service monitor $10,000.00 for analog only then you will have to learn how to use it and what you are seeing (this is the part where a tutor will be handy). Programming radios is not like programming a scanner the radios have to have adjustments to make them work right Power Deviation and Frequency.

 

[Citywide173]

As far as Federal Grants, many require P25 capability and unfortunately, the grant funds do not come close to covering the increased cost of P25. Be prepared to write a justification letter that explains why P25 is unnecessary.

A lot of them now require multi-band capability, not just P25 capability, so getting someone proficient at grant writing is almost a necessity now.

 

[buddrousa]

A lot of them now require multi-band capability, not just P25 capability, so getting someone proficient at grant writing is almost a necessity now.

Ed that would be the Motorola influence on the grant requirements. The only portable that is not Motorola that meets that standard now is the EF Johnson VP900 series. Next it will be P25 DMR Multiband.

 

[Citywide173]

Ed that would be the Motorola influence on the grant requirements. The only portable that is not Motorola that meets that standard now is the EF Johnson VP900 series. Next it will be P25 DMR Multiband.

I understand that. Is the Thales Racal 25 no longer available?

 

[buddrousa]

Have not seen that in a dual band.

 

[Citywide173]

Have not seen that in a dual band.

Sorry, I meant the Thales Liberty

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/liberty-multiband-land-mobile-radio

 

[buddrousa]

Ed thanks for the link

 

[plarkinjr]

plarkinjr,
... Can you toss out just a WAG on the cost per radio that you think would be reasonable for your agency? Thanks!

Cheers! Dave

Both our grant writer and Motorola are talking $5000 each, complete. We're thinking for each SCBA, a portable more like $500-1000 each. For the rest preferably in the $100 range, but it's sounding like that's unreasonable.

One thing I forgot to mention: our station is un-manned. When paged, we rally there for apparatus & PPE... there's a desire for our responders to be able to communicate with one another on the way in. (e.g. "stand down", "bring the other brush truck", "what's your ETA?", "We just need man-power, come straight to the scene," etc). Right now, responders have no way of knowing what if anything has changed, or new info from those ahead of them until they arrive at station and radio out from there. We cannot afford to have a bank of fire-service rated portables with PPE at the station, AND equip every member with a $200+ portable for their use at home or on the drive in. Beginning to sound like this is essentially impossible.

 

[K4EET]

Here is a sub-$100 portable that could probably be less in quantity:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5RC1W26872

All may not be hopeless.

Cheers! Dave

 

[K4EET]

Here is another Part 90 VHF HT for $85.95:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5RC1W26853

Cheers! Dave

 

[Citywide173]

Seeing generally where you are from the info, I understand the politics that you are dealing with.

Apparently Motorola and your grant writer are looking at APX series radios. For the purposes of grant money, that is what you are limited to. If you are looking for alternatives in the $500-1000 range, there are plenty, you just need to dig a bit. Icom, Kenwood and Vertex would be the names I looked at.

As far as people communicating en route, that lowers the requirements even more. There are plenty of used options out there, for instance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-13-...h=item54640555be:g:L3YAAOSw0c9bv1CP:rk:2:pf:0 is about $53 each and the programming cable can be found online as well. If you are only using your local channel to coordinate while en route, these radios don't have to have the full capabilities of the ones on the rigs, just the minimum to make it work for your needs.

As far as chirp goes, the first line of the website states:

CHIRP is a free, open-source tool for programming your amateur radio. (emphasis added)

It is not designed for mission critical options, and should not be a consideration for your application.

You could also look at out of the box solutions such as apps like this: https://www.nowforce.com/first-responder-app/ but with budgetary constraints, I'm not sure that would work.

 

[davidzimmerman]

Both our grant writer and Motorola are talking $5000 each, complete. We're thinking for each SCBA, a portable more like $500-1000 each. For the rest preferably in the $100 range, but it's sounding like that's unreasonable.

One thing I forgot to mention: our station is un-manned. When paged, we rally there for apparatus & PPE... there's a desire for our responders to be able to communicate with one another on the way in. (e.g. "stand down", "bring the other brush truck", "what's your ETA?", "We just need man-power, come straight to the scene," etc). Right now, responders have no way of knowing what if anything has changed, or new info from those ahead of them until they arrive at station and radio out from there. We cannot afford to have a bank of fire-service rated portables with PPE at the station, AND equip every member with a $200+ portable for their use at home or on the drive in. Beginning to sound like this is essentially impossible.

does all members have pagers? is the paging frequency the same as DISPATCH?

 

[K4EET]

<snip> For the rest preferably in the $100 range, but it's sounding like that's unreasonable. <snip>

plarkinjr,

I would suggest getting one of the above for your proof-of-concept testing. Alinco is a decent brand in the Amateur Radio community and will be guaranteed to operate within the FCC's rules and regulations for Part 90. NewEgg is closed today so I could not call them to see what is needed to program these radios. Alinco may offer free software to do that job.

Cheers! Dave