Where's the ARRL's vaunted EMCOMM?

Status
Not open for further replies.

dlwtrunked

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,466
Not to detract from what happened on 9/11/2001, but we are light years away. FirstNet is a 40 billion dollar contract, AT&T is taking it seriously. You can't compare disasters then and now. In 2023, at least AT&T and VZW are serious about disaster response and recovery. Radio systems are mostly IP, have layers of redundancy that simply didn't exist in 2001, and public safety is better trained. ICS is now mandated nationwide. COM-T and COM-Ls and their respective COM-Us respond. Again, this wasn't even on the drawing board in 2001. We've learned quite a bit since then.

One thing that hasn't changed is the Randy Rescue whackerism- if anything- it's in high gear. Sure, hams have a role- and if they are properly vetted and trained like any other VOAD, they can be a great resource.
Light years away? No working cell phones in Hawaii disaster area (with wired service destroyed) per CNN. Redundancy? Do I have to give the same answer again. How long do you think after a large disaster that takes out phone lines and the cell system before "the phone company" shows up to provide comms at a shelter at a public school? Hams, in areas where ready, can provide comms at locations where there were not even comms (often bring their own generators.) (Oh, and by the way, in a hurricane, the generator at the nearby shelter school, would not start despite being checked a week earlier.) In real disasters, nothing that phone companies have done is going to be sufficient (at that point read my second sentence again). Consider also the Puerto Rico hurricane just a few years agi...ham radio teams went there to provide comms well after the incident. In real large disasters, "40 billion dollars" does not mean quick comms as needed and where needed. If a couple cell towers and wirelines go out, how long do you think it will take the phone company to fix that? And how long do you think it would talk a local ham radio group when organized, to provided back up comms between critical locations? (By the way, both hospitals in our area have amateur stations as well as the county emergency operating center (and it has HF). Amateurs also ride in SO cars during regular drills for the nearby nuclear plant. It the county system goes down, the cell system would likely be already overloaded, and the ham in the car is his backup to the EOC.
 

dcr_inc

Feed Provider *York Pa.*
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
1,041
Location
Delta, Pa
First responder are not enough with cellphones out. I was at the Pentagon after 9/11 for 39.5 hours where ham radio supported the Salvation Army and Red Cross rpoviding support (food, clothing, etc.) to the first responders until the cell phone companies brought in portable cells to support the overload. And no first reponders are going to provide comms to residence trying to contact families. No, ham radio is not going to provide emgergency communications but would provide other needed communications. That is when there is enough of them, they are orgainized, and do not just want to be gawkers. If one has not seen a real disaster, one is clueless and should not really comment.
Oh but "One Has Seen MANY disasters", both natural and HAM made. So YES, I will comment.. Unless the local authorities are REQUESTING Ham radio help, Hams should stand down and wait.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Light years away? No working cell phones in Hawaii disaster area (with wired service destroyed) per CNN. Redundancy? Do I have to give the same answer again. How long do you think after a large disaster that takes out phone lines and the cell system before "the phone company" shows up to provide comms at a shelter at a public school? Hams, in areas where ready, can provide comms at locations where there were not even comms (often bring their own generators.) (Oh, and by the way, in a hurricane, the generator at the nearby shelter school, would not start despite being checked a week earlier.) In real disasters, nothing that phone companies have done is going to be sufficient (at that point read my second sentence again). Consider also the Puerto Rico hurricane just a few years agi...ham radio teams went there to provide comms well after the incident. In real large disasters, "40 billion dollars" does not mean quick comms as needed and where needed. If a couple cell towers and wirelines go out, how long do you think it will take the phone company to fix that? And how long do you think it would talk a local ham radio group when organized, to provided back up comms between critical locations? (By the way, both hospitals in our area have amateur stations as well as the county emergency operating center (and it has HF). Amateurs also ride in SO cars during regular drills for the nearby nuclear plant. It the county system goes down, the cell system would likely be already overloaded, and the ham in the car is his backup to the EOC.
Hurricane Ian...too bad you weren't at APCO to see the presentation by the Collier County EMA director. He was there. He was also a victim. No hams showed up with pissabags full and donuts. Real professionals responding during a real disaster. AT&T and VZW were on site. The biggest challenges were a washed out bridge. AT&T had amphibious vehicles with equipment on site where no 80 year old in a Buick is gonna venture. So just stop. Hurricane Ian was not even a year ago. People are still recovering to this day. So let's compare apples to apples: everything you talk about happened (PSAPs taken out, radio and commercial infrastructure compromised, mass numbers of people stranded and it was a CAT 5 not some puddle maker), the real heroes were professional COM-T and COM-Ls who worked tirelessly to get needed comms back up. The workers who actually broke sweat from AT&T, VZW, Comcast, et al busted their balls to get infrastructure restored.

There were no hams wading through water with their Buddipoles and battery powered IC-705s passing traffic from loved ones. AT&T brought in First Net assets and made the decision to open up WiFi calling so trapped residents could pass their own traffic. It's 2022/2023 not 1993. Hams riding around in patrol cars? Absurd. The whackerism that this EMCOMM crap is dangerous and insane. If an EOC is relying on third party ham guys sitting in their SUV in a parking lot, the EOC is run by incompetent managers. Where is their backup part 90 equipment? Where is a qualified COM-T/COM-L?

Time to stop the crazy nonsense about ham radio saving lives. It's really cheesy, misleading, and a bunch of hot air.
 

mastr

Member
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
496
...Where is a qualified COM-T/COM-L?...

FWIW, I do not have and have never been asked for that qualification. If someone turns me away due to lack thereof, I will gladly go down the road to where "we sure are glad to see you" will be the response.

Time to stop the crazy nonsense about ham radio saving lives. It's really cheesy, misleading, and a bunch of hot air.

I agree- but "ham radio reduces inconvenience" doesn't have the same ego boosting effect. Hams could provide a great service by doing something to reduce the flood of "I can't get hold of so-and-so" requests that come along with a significant event.
 

dlwtrunked

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,466
Hurricane Ian...too bad you weren't at APCO to see the presentation by the Collier County EMA director. He was there. He was also a victim. No hams showed up with pissabags full and donuts. Real professionals responding during a real disaster. AT&T and VZW were on site. The biggest challenges were a washed out bridge. AT&T had amphibious vehicles with equipment on site where no 80 year old in a Buick is gonna venture. So just stop. Hurricane Ian was not even a year ago. People are still recovering to this day. So let's compare apples to apples: everything you talk about happened (PSAPs taken out, radio and commercial infrastructure compromised, mass numbers of people stranded and it was a CAT 5 not some puddle maker), the real heroes were professional COM-T and COM-Ls who worked tirelessly to get needed comms back up. The workers who actually broke sweat from AT&T, VZW, Comcast, et al busted their balls to get infrastructure restored.

There were no hams wading through water with their Buddipoles and battery powered IC-705s passing traffic from loved ones. AT&T brought in First Net assets and made the decision to open up WiFi calling so trapped residents could pass their own traffic. It's 2022/2023 not 1993. Hams riding around in patrol cars? Absurd. The whackerism that this EMCOMM crap is dangerous and insane. If an EOC is relying on third party ham guys sitting in their SUV in a parking lot, the EOC is run by incompetent managers. Where is their backup part 90 equipment? Where is a qualified COM-T/COM-L?

Time to stop the crazy nonsense about ham radio saving lives. It's really cheesy, misleading, and a bunch of hot air.
I NEVER said it saved lives..that is a different job entirely. And you expected hams would be at APCO--I would not (and who would pay for it). I know several hams that were in Puerto Rico and saw their briefing--they ended up helping the other other emerg ency people who did not have the skills to adapt and improvise as needed. Hams have a role to fill the gaps and there will be gaps. People make the mistake of assuming what they do is what everyone does. And if one does not think hams in Hawaii do not prepare and act:
 
Last edited:

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Yawn...at the end of the day, disaster and emergency response is a professional role. No place for play or hobby time. The ARRL and their drive to draw in whackers and fringe only further causes folks actually in GOV or legit NGOs to RUN not walk FAR FAR AWAY from this drivel. ARES is a misnomer, just what qualified EMERGENCY SERVICE does it provide other than to fulfill some cosplay fantasy of old and young dare I say predominantly white men who never made it in the real world as emergency responders or becoming a qualified personnel with a vetted response agency, paid or volunteer.

Time to stop this train. Posting links to a bunch of drills is moot. The real work of responding to this is UPS bringing COMMERCIAL communications equipment to the affected area to be implemented/installed by...wait for it...REAL PROFESSIONALS engaged in disaster recovery.

Verizon Response
First Net ROG

Who is actually doing something to support actual restoration? I'll give you a clue, it aren't ARES whackers standing around in hospital parking lots.
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
There were no hams wading through water with their Buddipoles and battery powered IC-705s passing traffic from loved ones. AT&T brought in First Net assets and made the decision to open up WiFi calling so trapped residents could pass their own traffic. It's 2022/2023 not 1993. Hams riding around in patrol cars? Absurd. The whackerism that this EMCOMM crap is dangerous and insane. If an EOC is relying on third party ham guys sitting in their SUV in a parking lot, the EOC is run by incompetent managers. Where is their backup part 90 equipment? Where is a qualified COM-T/COM-L?

Time to stop the crazy nonsense about ham radio saving lives. It's really cheesy, misleading, and a bunch of hot air.
what is your problem man? I think we all understand your disdain for the amateur radio community. Enough already.
 

dlwtrunked

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,466
Yawn...at the end of the day, disaster and emergency response is a professional role. No place for play or hobby time. The ARRL and their drive to draw in whackers and fringe only further causes folks actually in GOV or legit NGOs to RUN not walk FAR FAR AWAY from this drivel. ARES is a misnomer, just what qualified EMERGENCY SERVICE does it provide other than to fulfill some cosplay fantasy of old and young dare I say predominantly white men who never made it in the real world as emergency responders or becoming a qualified personnel with a vetted response agency, paid or volunteer.

Time to stop this train. Posting links to a bunch of drills is moot. The real work of responding to this is UPS bringing COMMERCIAL communications equipment to the affected area to be implemented/installed by...wait for it...REAL PROFESSIONALS engaged in disaster recovery.

Verizon Response
First Net ROG

Who is actually doing something to support actual restoration? I'll give you a clue, it aren't ARES whackers standing around in hospital parking lots.

The first was not a drill and you commented about a lack of training. And ARES job is not to repair equipment. I hope you saw my comment about different poeple doing different things. You just do not like ham radio or the ARRL. In my area, the local government has come to us many times for various kinds of help. I will no further comment. .
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
what is your problem man? I think we all understand your disdain for the amateur radio community. Enough already.
Uhm...I think I made it clear, I have no disdain for the "amateur community" as I have been an active ham for 38 years. I disdain whackerism and the constant stream of nonsense about hams being considered "first responders". It's over the top and doesn't do us HAMS any real service. What does the basis and purpose of amateur radio as defined by the FCC stipulate? Seems many have taken stuff out of context and created a false narrative of "emergency response" and blown it way out of proportion.

We are supposed to be technical experts pushing the envelope of RF. Demonstrate goodwill, and yes, if needed, provide community service. None of this means donning vests, toting fake badges, light bars, showing up on scenes barking orders, or meddling in government affairs.
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
Yawn...at the end of the day, disaster and emergency response is a professional role. No place for play or hobby time. The ARRL and their drive to draw in whackers and fringe only further causes folks actually in GOV or legit NGOs to RUN not walk FAR FAR AWAY from this drivel. ARES is a misnomer, just what qualified EMERGENCY SERVICE does it provide other than to fulfill some cosplay fantasy of old and young dare I say predominantly white men who never made it in the real world as emergency responders or becoming a qualified personnel with a vetted response agency, paid or volunteer.

Time to stop this train. Posting links to a bunch of drills is moot. The real work of responding to this is UPS bringing COMMERCIAL communications equipment to the affected area to be implemented/installed by...wait for it...REAL PROFESSIONALS engaged in disaster recovery.

Verizon Response
First Net ROG

Who is actually doing something to support actual restoration? I'll give you a clue, it aren't ARES whackers standing around in hospital parking lots.

One thing that hasn't changed is the Randy Rescue whackerism- if anything- it's in high gear. Sure, hams have a role- and if they are properly vetted and trained like any other VOAD, they can be a great resource.
So why is it that in one breath you absolutely abhor amateur radio operators, and in the next you say that they can be a great resource? Pick which side of the fence you want to be on. One more thing...I think you can make your point without the absolutely irreverent comments about amateur radio operators. Comments like "piss bags full" and some other colorfully worded comments really do not belong here.
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
Uhm...I think I made it clear, I have no disdain for the "amateur community" as I have been an active ham for 38 years. I disdain whackerism and the constant stream of nonsense about hams being considered "first responders". It's over the top and doesn't do us HAMS any real service.
You think you can contain yourself and refrain from the otherwise poorly worded commentary about the amateur community? Your comments have been the one and only thing that has made me shake my head about this entire thread.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
FWIW, I do not have and have never been asked for that qualification. If someone turns me away due to lack thereof, I will gladly go down the road to where "we sure are glad to see you" will be the response.



I agree- but "ham radio reduces inconvenience" doesn't have the same ego boosting effect. Hams could provide a great service by doing something to reduce the flood of "I can't get hold of so-and-so" requests that come along with a significant event.
COM-T and COM-L are nothing new. If it isn't a thing in your region, so be it. The Feds have rolled it out to create a road map for COM-Us to have standardized training.
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
We are supposed to be technical experts pushing the envelope of RF. Demonstrate goodwill, and yes, if needed, provide community service. None of this means donning vests, toting fake badges, light bars, showing up on scenes barking orders, or meddling in government affairs.
I don't know where you're getting any of these ideas about them being "whackers". Even if this is your personal experience with them, I highly doubt that it is true for the however many remaining operators participating in civic duty.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
So why is it that in one breath you absolutely abhor amateur radio operators, and in the next you say that they can be a great resource? Pick which side of the fence you want to be on. One more thing...I think you can make your point without the absolutely irreverent comments about amateur radio operators. Comments like "piss bags full" and some other colorfully worded comments really do not belong here.
There is no fence. Either one is part of a qualified response unit or not. ARES isn't. Sorry. Nice try though. You want to fight and I am not that guy. You should direct your anger towards the ARRL and their misleading marketing of ham radio as some type of pseudo-gov cool club. It isn't that. You and I know it. So don't blame me for calling it out.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
You think you can contain yourself and refrain from the otherwise poorly worded commentary about the amateur community? Your comments have been the one and only thing that has made me shake my head about this entire thread.
The thread wasn't started by me. Someone asked where is the ARRL and EMCOMM in regards to an ongoing disaster of epic proportion. As always, they are absent because:

They are not needed
They are not official anything
They are not capable of responding to anything remotely vital

Other NGOs like the Red Cross and commercial entities like AT&T FN ROG and VZ's Disaster Response are rolling, as are countless other VOADs with qualified people doing more than standing around holding an EF Johnson. You know it and so do I.

Sounds like a case of "the hit dog hollers" to me.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
I don't know where you're getting any of these ideas about them being "whackers". Even if this is your personal experience with them, I highly doubt that it is true for the however many remaining operators participating in civic duty.
You have no idea what my personal experiences are. Needless to say, a local ARES group of 7 people have done nothing but alienate many in the region, stole a repeater, acted like total asshats in meetings and towards several EMA directors. It's made ham radio a taboo subject. Some of us licensed hams who work for agencies work hard to mend the scorched earth they've left behind. We also know what ham radio's role is. None of it involved being on or near the front lines or giving that false impression either.
 

PD47JD

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 13, 2021
Messages
435
Location
Connecticut
Hurricane Ian...too bad you weren't at APCO to see the presentation by the Collier County EMA director. He was there. He was also a victim. No hams showed up with pissabags full and donuts. Real professionals responding during a real disaster. AT&T and VZW were on site. The biggest challenges were a washed out bridge. AT&T had amphibious vehicles with equipment on site where no 80 year old in a Buick is gonna venture. So just stop. Hurricane Ian was not even a year ago. People are still recovering to this day. So let's compare apples to apples: everything you talk about happened (PSAPs taken out, radio and commercial infrastructure compromised, mass numbers of people stranded and it was a CAT 5 not some puddle maker), the real heroes were professional COM-T and COM-Ls who worked tirelessly to get needed comms back up. The workers who actually broke sweat from AT&T, VZW, Comcast, et al busted their balls to get infrastructure restored.

There were no hams wading through water with their Buddipoles and battery powered IC-705s passing traffic from loved ones. AT&T brought in First Net assets and made the decision to open up WiFi calling so trapped residents could pass their own traffic. It's 2022/2023 not 1993. Hams riding around in patrol cars? Absurd. The whackerism that this EMCOMM crap is dangerous and insane. If an EOC is relying on third party ham guys sitting in their SUV in a parking lot, the EOC is run by incompetent managers. Where is their backup part 90 equipment? Where is a qualified COM-T/COM-L?

Time to stop the crazy nonsense about ham radio saving lives. It's really cheesy, misleading, and a bunch of hot air.
My, so touchy, aren't we?
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
There is no fence. Either one is part of a qualified response unit or not. ARES isn't. Sorry. Nice try though. You want to fight and I am not that guy. You should direct your anger towards the ARRL and their misleading marketing of ham radio as some type of pseudo-gov cool club. It isn't that. You and I know it. So don't blame me for calling it out.
Who says I'm "fighting"? I don't "fight". My issue is the manner in which you called them out. You need to re-read my post.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,863
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Who says I'm "fighting"? I don't "fight". My issue is the manner in which you called them out. You need to re-read my post.
You don't like it, sorry, that is the way I choose to call them out because this is exactly what I have seen first hand. It doesn't detract from the factual context nor the truth. I apologize to you if you feel offended. I genuinely hope you have a better day.
 

Spankymedic7

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
368
Location
Wisconsin
You have no idea what my personal experiences are. Needless to say, a local ARES group of 7 people have done nothing but alienate many in the region, stole a repeater, acted like total asshats in meetings and towards several EMA directors. It's made ham radio a taboo subject. Some of us licensed hams who work for agencies work hard to mend the scorched earth they've left behind. We also know what ham radio's role is. None of it involved being on or near the front lines or giving that false impression either.
I neither stated nor implied that I knew what your personal experiences were. Bottom line: I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, nor am I defending them. My beef is the way that you carried on throughout this thread. Period. You could have succinctly stated your point without the derogatory comments. I'm done with the back-and-forth. You made your point, and I made mine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top