Where's the ARRL's vaunted EMCOMM?

[n0esc]

I will posit that as has come up in other threads related to the ARRL and related, that the "good ol boys" are still clinging on to their nostalgia and "heritage". IMO ARES had a greater impact in a bygone era that those same 80yo's rolling in on their whale skin hub capped Cadillac refuse to let go of. REACT even had its purpose too in its day. Eons ago when every agency was orphaned on their own AM, and eventually FM VHF frequency, and repeaters were countywide if you were lucky, then there was some validity to the local ARES team rolling up with their boat anchor to relay communications to neighboring areas. Some.

The new generation of hams isn't interested, leaving those old guys at the local McDonald's on Saturday mornings to keep talking about how they are ready and waiting. Any day now. Just need a big disaster. We'll be there. Right boys? Wait, isn't Jim's funeral next Saturday? Do we really only have 3 guys showing up to Field Day this year? Oh, it's alright. Just gotta wait another month for Chuck's new hip to heal up so he can climb the repeater tower and we're set for another 5 years.

 

[blantonl]

Hawaii has many amateur radio repeaters and an extensive internet-linked repeater system, including KH6COM, a VHF/UHF Maui countywide system with emergency backup power. An update, as of August 11, 2023, shares that the KH6COM repeater system is operational in Central Maui, Haleakala Summit, Lanai, and Molokai. “Repeaters on the Whaler and Kaanapali Beach Hotel lost linking due to fiber optics cables burned. Those in Lahaina can utilize the Pu’u O Hoku Ranch repeater at the East end of Molokai.”

Devastating Hawaii Wildfires Prompt Response from Amateur Radio Emergency Service

The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) is the national association for amateur radio, connecting hams around the U.S. with news, information and resources.

www.arrl.org

 

[ddrad]

Sorry to hear so many have had bad experiences with local hams. Where I live, amateurs train regularly, are encouraged by local emergency management, incorporated into the local EOC and supported with equipment and radio rooms. The older guys are respected for their experience and expertise, and they know their own skills and limitations within the framework.
Incidentally, I'm astonished at some of the stereotypes casually slung around in this discussion. It doesn't really promote...discussion.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

No specialized operator needed.

No specialized operator needed.
No specialized operator needed.
No specialized operator needed.

The essence of the challenge we faced, and now I WILL pull a small bit from my screed about 2012 that I left out of my earlier post.

The "Go-Kit" guy showed up at the township building. He had a 2M-in-a-box setup that was nice.
There were 2 radios - both kenwood something something, nice speakers, battery backup, a notebook with laminated pages of frequencies.
We had already installed a 2M antenna on the building a few years ago, and he had a tripod-mounted antenna too that could get an antenna to about 12'
Didn't matter - the "designated repeater" for EMCom was unreachable from the municipal building - it was quite far away - even though it was the one the ARES group used for weekly drills. Why? Because the guy did the drills from his home, with an antenna about 40' AGL, from his house high on a hill. The township building antenna was 24' AGL and did not have good LOS to the repeater.
So I suggested using a different 2M repeater, one just over the state line, and on a really nice high tower that I showed worked fine as I "ker-chunked" with my TH26AT, a portable that I had.

He wouldn't use it because "we don't have an Memorandum of Understanding" for use of that repeater, and it was not included in their EMCOM plan. I reminded him that it was an emergency and I could use any radio, in any mode I wanted if it came to saving lives, which is not the immediate problem yet, but could we please deal with getting cots and water where it is needed via the repeater in the next state because it works and your designated repeater does not work.

We then talked about our feelings for a few minutes, and he decided it was OK to use the out-of-state 2M repeater, but ONLY if he could find another operator willing to "violate policy" - which he could not. So we never did use it. Eventually, I saw that he had left the facility, leaving his radios behind, but taking his microphones with him, I'll presume to keep anyone from using the radios. As far as I heard, some truckers who had CB radios with illegal linear amps ended up helping with logistics communications for a few hours, but I never did find out if that was true or not.

The point is that what I needed was a microphone that someone - anyone - could speak into HERE and have the sound come out THERE without thinking about much more than a channel name or number.
What I got was a portable bureaucracy. I'm not flogging the topic anymore, but thanks for verbalizing things so well, mmkenna!

 

[MTS2000des]

This sounds very similar to my personal experience with my previous agency. We had an official agency sponsored COMEX, but ARES guys pouted because we didn't "coordinate with them" and "had it on their designated net night". Rather than participate, they pouted of like spoiled children because they didn't get to play. Really showed us as the supposed served entity where their hearts and minds are.

 

[KK4JUG]

This is provided without comment:

Mississippi Amateur Radio Operators gather for annual Mississippi Stimulated Emergency Test

One day a year, FCC-licensed amateur Radio Operators take to the airwaves to run tests.

www.wlox.com

 

[k6cpo]

It's a shame that there are those out there that make a bad name for the rest. I really believe that the majority of us are passionate, conscientious, and "know our place" in the grand scheme of things. My county's group (which is RACES, not ARES, FWIW) requires several FEMA ICS courses as a prerequisite, as well as background checks. We've had a good relationship with the city and county EM's for decades. The whole reason I got into ham radio in the beginning (30+ years ago) was for SKYWARN storm spotting and EMCOMM / AUXCOMM. We've got people with a lot of varied skill sets. And we have contributed in a positive manner to many events in our area.

Several years ago, the league instituted a "task book" for ARES. One thing they did was allow each individual ARES organization tailor it to their specific needs and served agency(s). At the second skill level, the basic ICS courses are required and at the higher levels, the supervisory ICS courses are required. I don't know how well this has been adhered to in other ARES groups, but here in San Diego we have active ongoing training and task book sign offs. This was enough to get a good percentage of members vetted as Disaster Service Workers at the county level. Unfortunately, the pandemic brought that to a halt and it hasn't resumed to the best of my knowledge.

Much of my city lost power a year ago, and sort of instinctively I tried our club repeater the first day (and the next couple of days) to find that many of us were there, discussing who had power and who didn't, what major intersections had lights out or lights working, which gas stations were working and which weren't, etc. Good hints and tips being passed, information that could be shared with non-ham family and friends. That, too, is not "emcomm" is traditionally envisioned, more like community support or something. But valuable!

Back in 2011, San Diego experienced a 12 hour power outage that darkened most of the county (and portions of Orange County to the north, Imperial County to the east and Tijuana to the south.) A couple of years later , my club installed solar power on our repeater tower and went entirely off grid with our two repeaters. In the intervening years the system has proven to be extremely reliable. All of our members know that they can go to the repeaters for information when needed. In addition, we have recently acquired a third repeater installed on the roof of a 16 story condominium building with excellent coverage around the area. It has emergency power as well, but no solar.

My club has a relationship with the fire department of the City of Chula Vista, the second largest city in the county that has existed for many years. The city CERT team is able to use our repeater in an emergency and we also have operators that can be placed in the city EOC. This relationship has been cultivated independent of ARES, although many of our members are ARES members and train with them regularly.

I will posit that as has come up in other threads related to the ARRL and related, that the "good ol boys" are still clinging on to their nostalgia and "heritage". IMO ARES had a greater impact in a bygone era that those same 80yo's rolling in on their whale skin hub capped Cadillac refuse to let go of. REACT even had its purpose too in its day. Eons ago when every agency was orphaned on their own AM, and eventually FM VHF frequency, and repeaters were countywide if you were lucky, then there was some validity to the local ARES team rolling up with their boat anchor to relay communications to neighboring areas. Some.

The new generation of hams isn't interested, leaving those old guys at the local McDonald's on Saturday mornings to keep talking about how they are ready and waiting. Any day now. Just need a big disaster. We'll be there. Right boys? Wait, isn't Jim's funeral next Saturday? Do we really only have 3 guys showing up to Field Day this year? Oh, it's alright. Just gotta wait another month for Chuck's new hip to heal up so he can climb the repeater tower and we're set for another 5 years.

REACT is still around, although not in the numbers they once had. Depending on their relationships with local agencies, some are still involved in emergency communications. Other have pivoted to new endeavors not related to their original purpose, which was monitoring CB radio to provide assistance to stranded motorists. That has been superseded by the ubiquitous cell phone. The San Diego REACT Team is now exclusively involved in special event communications, such as marathons, bicycle rides, endurance equestrian events and parades.

 

[jm650]

The State of Haw'aii has undergone a disaster on the island of Maui and with all respect to those who've died, been injured, and or lost their homes and property; where is the ARRL and their much talked about EMCOMM capacity? There is no mention of anything on their website as of 1745 GMT and nothing in their public service section of their website. It is as if nothing has happened,

Yes, I know power is down and there are only about ~3,000 amateurs in the State, but someone there has to have access to an emergency generator/solar panels, a ticket, and a HF radio.

I guess wildfires weren't planned for in their 'scenario gaming'.

One issue is even ARES hams which Mikey have taken some ICS courses from FEMA are generally not vetted.

Even more importantly they lack relationships with state, regional, and city EOCs or EOS. Government doesn’t want to bring in a bunch wild cards into a disaster.

CISA is championing bringing hams into the ICS structure. Certified folks are called AUXCs (auxiliary communications).

What does it take to become an AUXC? About 20 hours of on-site training. I did this training last weekend in Santa Cruise. The event was sponsored by a grant. They said it costs about $10k per person.

That qualifies you to then execute a series of tasks within the ICS structure. When the “Position Task Book” is completed and each task signed off by the “COML” of each event, you submit the entire task book for certification.

They then verify your experience by requesting your ICS 214 forms by your served agency.

So until we have some trusted folks that are certified, hams won’t get very many seats at the table as agency cannot count on them to fit within the ICS structure.

A lot of the AUXC training focuses around table top exercises based radio allocation planning in ICS 205 form.

The instructors said that only 2% of those who take the training actually complete the tasks books.

 

[KA0XR]

Did NOAA Weather Radio play a role in warning of the fire on Maui and is it now broadcasting information relative to the recovery efforts? (Maui is served by Station WWG75, broadcasting on frequency 162.4 MHz at 300 watts).

If any warnings were broadcast, was Specific Area Message Encoding (SAME) code 015009 sent out to enable automatic receiver ‘unmuting’?

Whether NOAA from Maui played a part in any early warning system is what I'd like to know, if anyone here can answer that? Nobody in the national media has asked that question of either residents or officials. All you hear about is the lack of warnings via sirens, smartphone alerts or other media, but nothing about NOAA weather/all hazard broadcasts. I found a live feed of WWG75 yesterday so I presume it was operational during the fire.

A related question is how many people who are not hams, mariners or live in tornado prone areas even know or care about NOAA 162 MHz weather broadcasts? In the age of smartphones these high power analog broadcasts could be seen as outdated and a waste of power, at least outside of severe weather periods. I suppose NOAA has no good way to track or gauge listenership. All these transmitters do serve as VHF tropo-ducting beacons though.

 

[dlwtrunked]

...

Let's be totally honest here: Ham radio operators are good at operating a two way radio. That's it. There is nothing about the hobby that prepares hams to step in to a major disaster and fill in for public safety professionals. Radio communications is only one of the skills required by professionals, even 911 dispatchers have a ton of responsibilities beyond talking on the radio.
...

The above to be honest is what I do strongly challenge. Many hams go beyond that and bring other skills/assets. Many bring their own generators. Some of these skills/capability come from Field Day exercises. I have seen a ham tow a county a broke down county vehicle with his pickup at an PD/FD/EMS operation. They have knowledge/skills AT THE SCENE that a normal PD/FD/EMS person may not have--try to get quick professional help after midnight... I have seen hams operate as even paper messengers. A couple times I have gotten out one of my several sets of universal coax adapters to fix a problem the emergency medical service had. And on occasion, I have helped unload supply vehicles when not enough other people are available. To think hams only operate two way radio does not match my experience. Many are smart people who bring skills that are of use beyond just operating a two way radio..

My local sheriff office need help with providing communicators for their Search and Rescue command van. Using regular dispatchers was not an option. The local ham club was approached and several member are providing assistance as members of VIPS (Volunteers in Police Service). To be clear, that is not a ham radio activity (nor does it use ham radio frequencies) as with monthly training (required of all) and background checks they (including me), are on their systems. And yes, we often are called out after midnight. But note we are the group they came to. As an added note, when I was headed to the Orlando Hamfest, I spoke on 2-m to a county EOC ham station that runs a brief net weekly from the EOC as part of their counties hurricane preparations.

 

[mmckenna]

Here's the status as of this morning for communications on Maui:
DOC-395981A1.pdf

Their PSAP is functioning. No mention of LMR systems.
Cellular was 100% down, but sites are being restored.

Considering the state/federal assets on the ground and at sea, I doubt communications is a big issue on the emergency front.
I could see that local residents in the area would be having a hard time making telephone calls and getting internet access. Hopefully hams and others can help fill in those spaces.

 

[KK4JUG]

Let's be totally honest here: Ham radio operators are good at operating a two way radio. That's it. There is nothing about the hobby that prepares hams to step in to a major disaster and fill in for public safety professionals. Radio communications is only one of the skills required by professionals, even 911 dispatchers have a ton of responsibilities beyond talking on the radio.

Some of us are both hams and public safety. I was even an ICS instructor before I retired. I also handled communications in our mobile command post. We've worked train wrecks, building collapses, tornados, etc., and even spent time working Katrina. We have ham radios in the command post but, since 1997, I can't remember ever using them at all. We looked them as something we'd rather have and not need instead of need and not have.

 

[MUTNAV]

Whether NOAA from Maui played a part in any early warning system is what I'd like to know, if anyone here can answer that? Nobody in the national media has asked that question of either residents or officials. All you hear about is the lack of warnings via sirens, smartphone alerts or other media, but nothing about NOAA weather/all hazard broadcasts. I found a live feed of WWG75 yesterday so I presume it was operational during the fire.

A related question is how many people who are not hams, mariners or live in tornado prone areas even know or care about NOAA 162 MHz weather broadcasts? In the age of smartphones these high power analog broadcasts could be seen as outdated and a waste of power, at least outside of severe weather periods. I suppose NOAA has no good way to track or gauge listenership. All these transmitters do serve as VHF tropo-ducting beacons though.

I've been wondering if the sirens are mostly for Tsunami warnings, or if there was fear that people would evacuate into the fire if they were sounded.

Our local fire department in NJ had an arrangement for the number of wails of the siren meant different things, but not everyone knew it. How many of us former military people can remember the difference (off hand) between an Alarm Red and Alarm Yellow siren sound.

Thanks
Joel

 

[KK6HRW]

A related question is how many people who are not hams, mariners or live in tornado prone areas even know or care about NOAA 162 MHz weather broadcasts?

Would it be fair to assume that NOAA Weather Broadcasts would be part of the Tsunami Warning System for ‘at risk’ locations, such as Maui?

 

[mmckenna]

Some of us are both hams and public safety. I was even an ICS instructor before I retired. I also handled communications in our mobile command post. We've worked train wrecks, building collapses, tornados, etc., and even spent time working Katrina. We have ham radios in the command post but, since 1997, I can't remember ever using them at all. We looked them as something we'd rather have and not need instead of need and not have.

One of our PD sergeants is a ham. He's a good guy.
Can't say that we've ever used ham here, at least not in my 26 years. I gave him a copy of the software for their radios, and I'm pretty sure he's got a few local repeaters in his radio.

No ham radios in our EOC or PSAP.

Not saying they should or should not be, just that we have not had the need for it, even though many of us are hams. I do know that our PSAP is very tightly controlled. They don't let people in unless there is a very specific need. For me to work in there, I was run through the POST background check process as a 911 dispatcher. I also have to go through periodic NCIC training, FBI, state DOJ, etc. My staff that work/visit those spaces go through most of the same things. I know some PSAP's are much more loose with their access controls.

Our EOC is very open and has a lot of staff on it. It's not as tightly controlled. The old EOC director was a ham and wanted to know who else had their license, but we still never had any ham radios in the EOC.

Seems to be a local decision thing. Whatever works for the specific area is what should be done. Just not seeing hams in the EOC/PSAP thing locally. Other than a major fiber outage, I haven't see mention of hams doing much. Even then, they were duplicating a functioning system that the local hospitals already had.

As I've said before, hams absolutely can have a role in disasters/emergencies, but it is not standardized nationwide. Some areas seem to heavily rely on hams, some don't. The last few APCO/IWCE's I've been to had some discussions that touched on this, and in all cases, hams were not the saviors. The fire in New Mexico was specifically discussed as a situation where they wanted to use amateur radio to reach people in remote areas, but it didn't work out, so they had to use other resources.

Glad to see there is some agreement on hams filling other roles than just radio operators.

 

[MUTNAV]

Glad to see there is some agreement on hams filling other roles than just radio operators.

When reflecting on this statement, I think that is a more universal principle than some may think...

When applying for colleges, academics are important, but what else a person did was also very important.
ie In my high school at an awards ceremony, I watched the valedictorian get a $1,000 scholarship, the guy that got mostly A's and a few B's but was co-captain of the football team, captain of the basketball team, and also was in select choir got offered the U.S. Navy Academy among other schools.

In teaching, a teacher was expected to go beyond basic classroom things and coach or advise clubs / teams.

Even in the military, if a person just did their job, that was terrible. Even entire units had organizations that they would help out and support, just doing the "job" as assigned was NEVER enough.

Of course Ham radio IS the extra thing that some people do, in addition to their actual jobs, it might be worthwhile to let others know that they have multiple skills if they have them (translator off hand comes to mind).

It's a nice thing to reflect on though.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Would it be fair to assume that NOAA Weather Broadcasts would be part of the Tsunami Warning System for ‘at risk’ locations, such as Maui?

Yes... there are both codes for a watch and a warning.

NWR NWS Event Codes

Thanks
Joel

 

[BinaryMode]

Yeah, I think "not needed at this time" is probably the answer.

While hams can play a role, the ARRL's "when all else fails" is based off faulty thinking and lack of understanding of the communications capabilities that state/regional level responders have access to.

While the disaster is shocking, there's really not anything that would impact communications in/out/around the islands. Likely extent of issues might be a few damaged/out of service LMR and cell sites.
Fiber to/from the islands would not be impacted by this.

Federal agencies have tons of resources there are in use.


I sat in on an interesting discussion at one of the big trade shows last year. Had to do with one of the big fires in New Mexico. They had challenges reaching residents in some of the very remote canyons in the path of the fire. They tried using hams, but there was a problem:
Out of the thousands of licensed hams in New Mexico, there were only 17 that had gone through the entire process to get background checked and vetted by the state OES. Of those 17, most were unable to respond. Ham radio was deemed ill equipped to respond due to the lack of trained and vetted individuals that were available. The state OES had to turn to some interesting alternate resources.
"When all else failed", hams where not the solution, in that case.

That's very interesting, but perhaps the problem was the "vetting?"

 

[MUTNAV]

That's very interesting, but perhaps the problem was the "vetting?"

I really like good analogies (sometimes) and I think there is an analogy for this.

I was first exposed to the idea when dealing with a special needs child when Verbal Behavior / Applied Behavior Analyses was considered.

The analogy was,

You see a child (your child?) is drowning off the end of a dock, and you run over to a life ring that is nearby and get ready to urgently help the kid drowning, but someone comes up and starts arguing with you, saying that the particular life ring you have hasn't been coast guard approved and vetted for use in saving a child in that age and weight range, would you use the ring anyway and try to help, or put it down since it doesn't meet the certification requirements.

This seems ridiculous, but I also remember a person that had a child in anaphylactic shock, she called 911 and in the course of the call the dispatcher told her that since the childs epi-pen was expired, to not use it. The child died. Physicians said it was stupid advice.

At some point (not necessarily with the New Mexico fires), it's time to just use what you have available.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

I really like good analogies (sometimes) and I think there is an analogy for this.

The "vetting" is what some agencies do with volunteers that are handling certain types of data, certain tasks, certain jobs, etc.


And maybe what you were saying was "it doesn't matter in an emergency". Well, the state OES would have disagreed with you. They have certain standards that need to be met. Those standards are not hard to meet, but apparently they are hard enough that it limits who can participate.

Hams need to find their role. It's not necessarily "emergency communications". It should be "communications as needed by whoever needs it".

Looking at some of the reports coming out of Maui, their role might be filling in where cellular and other commercial carriers have failed. That doesn't require much. Just pass traffic out of the area to someone who can get it on to who needs to hear it.

But, as technology advances, they are going to need to fight to keep their place. Recent cell phones have satellite capability, so anyone with the more recent phones will simply be able to text via satellite. Voice via satellite is coming, as will data. Hams will need to find their niche again, and keep finding it.