Where's the ARRL's vaunted EMCOMM?

[KB2GOM]

Here in upstate New York state, we've had several instances where hams assisted local and state LEOs when their communications infrastructure was damaged by storms, etc.

For the ordinary citizen, perhaps finding out what communications networks are active in your area and then joining those well ahead of an emergency might be useful.

A while back, I interviewed a gentleman (now a ham) who spent three weeks without power after Katrina:

The fertilizer hits the fan radio kit

By Jock Elliott, KB2GOM Murphy’s Law: If anything can go wrong, it will. 1st corollary: Even if anything can’t go wrong, it still will. 2nd corollary: It will go wrong in th…

swling.com

Perhaps some folks might find it useful.

 

[MUTNAV]

As a non-ham, I've read through most of this thread, and in a sense it's an example of how much ham radio has changed, in importance, since the late 20th Century.

It's no longer as much of a vital and new tech as it was even 30 years ago. Even the new digital modes are either underused (aside from FT8, which seems to be limited in emergency use) or simply not as effective for information retrieval and dispersion as a working cell system. I remember studying for a license in the early 1990s and packet radio was the massive new thing. It was supposed to be like email sent over 2 Meters, and there were even packet systems that would apparently work on HF. There was talk in the ham and SWL mags about packet radio, how it was going to change everything. How much is that even used? And how helpful would packet radio be -- if it's still being used -- in a big emergency?

It's an example of a new ham radio tech that gets surpassed even before it becomes popular. CW and SSB still seem to rule (and FM on VHF/UHF) because they're fairly simple tech, and easy to use. But a lot of talk here is about advanced stuff used by first responders -- tech that appears to surpass ham radio, even if you take away the other factors (training, etc.).

The fires in Maui were devastating. And from everything I've read, whether here, or on forums used by radio industry pros, the general consensus is that little could be done on either end (ham or broadcast radio) to lessen the impact of the fires. The fires moved too fast, and were too destructive. Not even AM and FM radio could do much, due to the constraints of automated playlists, lack of personnel at the stations, issues with power at the stations, the speed of the fires, and other factors.

I once intended to be a ham (life got in the way) and may still take that plunge, and I still monitor the HF ham bands frequently. But I don't think the hobby holds the same importance in emergencies that it did even 20 years ago. I really don't know much about ARRL's EMCOMM, but if it means they think that ham radio can be vital in massive emergencies, although I applaud their effort to remain vital to the local community, I think they're a bit mistaken.

Maybe in a TEOTWAWKI or SHTF scenario, ham radio would have a part to play. But in a lot of emergencies, especially when so few people in the general public even know what ham radio is, ham radio's emergency importance is a tough sell.

Regarding the part of ITEOTWAWKI and SHTF situation, the fires were it, there lives will never be the same, it was the end of their world.

If (and it's a BIG IF) what I was reading in "The Hill" is correct (and if I am reading it correctly so two possible source of misinfo here), then the police set up barricades that kept people away from safety and directed them towards the fire. If that were the case, then maybe a bunch of guys on GMRS that weren't affiliated with anyone (Ham or official) could have been way more helpful.

Similar to what I heard about with hurricanes sometimes, where information about important things (in the aftermath) like what areas still have power, and what gas stations still have gas, is important, and given out over ad-hock networks.

Maui residents who disobeyed barricade survived fires: AP

Those who disobeyed the barricaded road closures during the Maui fires survived the disaster, while many of those who heeded orders to turn around perished in their cars and homes with no way out, …

thehill.com

Just some food for thought

Thanks
Joel

 

[Lucifer_Morningstar]

It's refreshing to see a logical, well thought out discussion instead of the usual condemnation of "When all else fails..." However, some of the rhetoric I'm seeing in the media is leaving me puzzled. The complaints about the relief efforts are ludicrous. The victims and the media seem to think the FEMA Administrator can just snap her fingers and there will be 100 tons of relief supplies and 1,000 FEMA personnel on the ground the day after the fire. It just doesn't work that way and the situation is exacerbated in this case by the fact Maui is an island with only one airport capable of handling large cargo aircraft.

The other thing is the rush to judgement shown in all incidents like this, regardless of what the disaster might be. Everyone seems quick to find someone to blame, even while the fire was still burning. It never ceases to amaze me. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

"The victims and the media seem to think the FEMA Administrator can just snap her fingers and there will be 100 tons of relief supplies and 1,000 FEMA personnel on the ground the day after the fire."

She's begging for $$$ before Congress, yet -

FEMA officials splashing taxpayer cash on $1,000-a-night Maui hotels

Those "1000 FEMA personnel" are on the ground - except, they're playing golf.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

I've said this before:

A radio is a tool. It's a single tool.
To a true first responder, they have a radio in their "tool box", but they also have a lot of other "tools", training, experience, knowledge, skills, etc.

mmckenna - you will love this story, then.

Two summers ago, we got a call from an injured hiker, possible broken ankle, slipped fell off a small cliff on a little-used trail near the top of a "mountain" (it's just barely a mountain). Phone battery was extremely low, and the call dropped mid-call. Fortunately, dispatch was able to get coordinates for the phone itself, not the cell site it hit.

Based on the coordinates we had gotten from the now-dead phone, we decided due to the time of day, rather than take a longer winding trail that is strictly an "on-foot-not-even-horses-don't-consider-anything-with-wheels" due to the rocks, which would have taken a long time and put us into a "racing sunset" situation, we'd start from the back yard of someone's house and go straight up the side of the "mountain"about 3/4 of a mile through the brush and brambles and so on. A little bit of bush-whacking was needed here and there, and a few zigs and zags to get up. Also, the terrain was very rocky, and a bit steep in places, but not at all that difficult.

The fire chief asked me to direct our team on the way up, as I keep offline Topo maps on my phone, so I could navigate to the coordinates.

So up we went with a couple of medics, various bits of equipment, and plenty of people to carry the patient back out. We've done this sort of thing many times in many places, just never in this particular place, which was well off of the usual trails, so we were not familiar with the location.

Maybe 45 minutes later, we find the patient near the expected position, they are in all sorts of distress from their fall - chewed up by bugs, a cut on their head which made a lot of mess for a little blood, which lead to a panic attack, their phone is dead, plus they have a badly broken ankle, and probably wrist, cut and bruised all over, etc. etc. Plus they are complaining of chest pains, so that adds to the packaging efforts.

Now, on the way up I had left some trail tape along the way to mark the way back, but I have to admit that it wasn't that easy to find this "trail" I left behind. I looked back the way we came and it looked just like the way ahead - no particularly obvious way to go. I was working with the patient, and I radioed back to the folks at the start point to tell them they would have someone else use the GPS to lead us back to their position - and the chief radioed back, "No need. We'll just sound the air horn on the (fire) engine every 5 minutes, and you guys just follow the sound back."

Derp. He was right. No radios. No GPS. Just "Walk to the loud thing."

 

[AK_SAR]

Now, on the way up I had left some trail tape along the way to mark the way back, but I have to admit that it wasn't that easy to find this "trail" I left behind. I looked back the way we came and it looked just like the way ahead - no particularly obvious way to go. I was working with the patient, and I radioed back to the folks at the start point to tell them they would have someone else use the GPS to lead us back to their position - and the chief radioed back, "No need. We'll just sound the air horn on the (fire) engine every 5 minutes, and you guys just follow the sound back."

Derp. He was right. No radios. No GPS. Just "Walk to the loud thing."

That's actually a fairly standard technique used in lost person searches. The technical term is "Attraction". It is typically used in conjunction with "Containment". For example, if you think the search subject might be still mobile and aimlessly wandering around lost, you post someone at key points such as trail junctions for Containment, and have them build a nice big (safe and well tended) fire, or hang a strobe up in a tree, or periodically blow an air horn, or something similar for Attraction. The idea is the lost person will see or hear the attractant and head that way. A common tool used by wilderness SAR teams.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

I've said this before:

A radio is a tool. It's a single tool.
To a true first responder, they have a radio in their "tool box", but they also have a lot of other "tools", training, experience, knowledge, skills, etc.

If you open my roll-a-round tool box, in the top are lined up VHF/UHF/800/900 Portables along side my multimeter and other things I need to perform my job. While I am an amateur op and have radios for that purpose, I also have dedicated "tool" radios that only get used when I am testing something or need to RX or TX RF on a specific frequency or system. These radios are as much of a tool as any other in the box. As my responsibilities grow, just as I would add a specialized tool to the box, so do the radios. I have P25, NXDN and DMR on the bands as needed but added them when I needed to when I found i needed to generate RF using those modes.

 

[BinaryMode]

Maybe in a TEOTWAWKI or SHTF scenario, ham radio would have a part to play. But in a lot of emergencies, especially when so few people in the general public even know what ham radio is, ham radio's emergency importance is a tough sell.

Was thinking the same thing. Especially on HF or if one has a vacuum tube driven ham radio. I keep a vacuum tube driven shortwave Helicrafters radio for this very reason. I also keep it unplugged at all times unless I want to use it.

 

[MUTNAV]

That's actually a fairly standard technique used in lost person searches. The technical term is "Attraction". It is typically used in conjunction with "Containment". For example, if you think the search subject might be still mobile and aimlessly wandering around lost, you post someone at key points such as trail junctions for Containment, and have them build a nice big (safe and well tended) fire, or hang a strobe up in a tree, or periodically blow an air horn, or something similar for Attraction. The idea is the lost person will see or hear the attractant and head that way. A common tool used by wilderness SAR teams.

One of the lost person searches, helps lots of people find their car in the parking lot. and attracting the attention of family members when they are trying to make their way back.

Although I do remember an airman lost on Robins afb in the woods, and a couple of people that were on the search were walking on a road and talking and that's what attracted the attention of the lost person (he was really close to a dirt road, but that doesn't matter if you can't see it).

It can work in reverse also, I remember a story about the same time where a very young child was lost (not on the base, I think it was out west someplace), and two of the volunteer searchers were scared for the child, and decided to stop and pray, by keeping completely quiet they were able to hear the child sobbing not far from them.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Was thinking the same thing. Especially on HF or if one has a vacuum tube driven ham radio. I keep a vacuum tube driven shortwave Helicrafters radio for this very reason. I also keep it unplugged at all times unless I want to use it.

Slightly off topic but are we certain that tube is superior to transistor in an EMP? The PRC-77 was usable after EMP testing , but a PRC-25 (vacuum tube type) was not.

As far as the off topic part, is there an ITEOTWAWKI and SHTF radio forum or thread (couldn't find one).

Thanks
Joel

 

[BinaryMode]

That's interesting. I always assumed based on some educational thinking it was the chips that were fried. Thus vacuum tubes should hold up to an EMP or CME from the sun.

Yes, yet another subforum for SHTF would be nice.

 

[MUTNAV]

That's interesting. I always assumed based on some educational thinking it was the chips that were fried. Thus vacuum tubes should hold up to an EMP or CME from the sun.

Yes, yet another subforum for SHTF would be nice.

ie...

Other components in vacuum tube circuitry can be damaged by EMP. Vacuum tube equipment was damaged in the 1962 testing.[18] The solid state PRC-77 VHF manpackable two-way radio survived extensive EMP testing.[42] The earlier PRC-25, nearly identical except for a vacuum tube final amplification stage, was tested in EMP simulators, but was not certified to remain fully functional




Thanks
Joel

 

[ai8o]

The State of Haw'aii has undergone a disaster on the island of Maui and with all respect to those who've died, been injured, and or lost their homes and property; where is the ARRL and their much talked about EMCOMM capacity? There is no mention of anything on their website as of 1745 GMT and nothing in their public service section of their website. It is as if nothing has happened,

Yes, I know power is down and there are only about ~3,000 amateurs in the State, but someone there has to have access to an emergency generator/solar panels, a ticket, and a HF radio.

I guess wildfires weren't planned for in their 'scenario gaming'.

MOST EMA agencies don't want to interact with volunteers that they don't control.
No recruiting outreach, etc.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

That's actually a fairly standard technique used in lost person searches. The technical term is "Attraction". It is typically used in conjunction with "Containment". For example, if you think the search subject might be still mobile and aimlessly wandering around lost, you post someone at key points such as trail junctions for Containment, and have them build a nice big (safe and well tended) fire, or hang a strobe up in a tree, or periodically blow an air horn, or something similar for Attraction. The idea is the lost person will see or hear the attractant and head that way. A common tool used by wilderness SAR teams.

You think they would have mentioned that when we took "Basic SAR" classes
Our Chief is a smart person, glad they have their act together.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

Actually the Nextel Direct Connect was the only thing that was working that day because all the phone lines were overloaded with calls. I definitely know this because I left the Pentagon north parking 5 minutes before the plane hit and later that day had to bring in a Excavator. Worked for United Rentals and still do.

Kids born September 2001 graduated high school in 2018-2019.
More than a little has changed since then.

 

[rescuecomm]

One definition that the SHTF locally is dialing 911 for assistance and NOBODY answers. Perhaps causing mental breakdowns among the cellphone worshippers.

Another good definition of the defecation having hit the fan is finding out over CB or HF radio that 90 percent of the country's population may be dead.

 

[drdispatch]

One definition that the SHTF locally is dialing 911 for assistance and NOBODY answers. Perhaps causing mental breakdowns among the cellphone worshippers.

Another good definition of the defecation having hit the fan is finding out over CB or HF radio that 90 percent of the country's population may be dead.

"This is Lawrence......Lawrence, Kansas......Is there anybody there?...... Anybody at all......"
-Professor Joe Huxley

 

[KK6HRW]

You think they would have mentioned that when we took "Basic SAR" classes
Our Chief is a smart person, glad they have their act together.

“Come to the sound of my voice” was a technique for searching in a building that we were taught in Basic CERT Class.