Why is Harris public Safety p25 better?

[DisasterGuy]

So, I’m hoping and guessing that it is possible to make the top selector knob on a Xg-75p the channel selector knob instead of the System selector knob?

Our area currently uses the left and right buttons on the face of the radio to change zones on the Motorola’s we have. I’m assuming that the cps for the Harris p25 radios can do the same thing.

I also know that in one zone, we can mix trunked channels with conventional channels . I.e. atac8 and talkaround 1 (simplex conventional)


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The default configuration is for top knob to be channel/TG select and the up/down arrows on the front cover to be system/zone. The behavior you described is achieved through custom mapping of the buttons in programming. It is done most commonly for users that require greater than 16 channels/groups per system/zone. It was much more common in the days prior to the XG75 since the newer platforms allow mapping of the A/B (or A/B/C or A/B/C/D depending on model) to bank operation taking you to positions 16-32 and higher.

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[kb4cvn]

When I did a foia, for the proposed new Harris system for albemarle and charlottesville, Harris redacted their proprietary information.

As memory serves me correct, what was bid for City of Charlottesville / Albemarle County was OpenSky format trunking, not Project-25. But, I retired in 2012, and am a bit fuzzy on that project as I was not directly involved.

So, I’m hoping and guessing that it is possible to make the top selector knob on a Xg-75p the channel selector knob instead of the System selector knob?

Our area currently uses the left and right buttons on the face of the radio to change zones on the Motorola’s we have. I’m assuming that the cps for the Harris p25 radios can do the same thing.

I also know that in one zone, we can mix trunked channels with conventional channels . I.e. atac8 and talkaround 1 (simplex conventional)

By default, conventional channels & trunked talkgroups are on the knob (Moto = Modes).
By default, systems whether they are trunked or conventional are selected by the SYSTEM UP & SYSTEM DOWN buttons on the front cover (Moto = Zones).

Most any button can be remapped on the radio in the radio's personality file. However, there are 2nd Level function to some buttons. In the case of the three left-side buttons (PTT, Monitor/Clear & Option 1), re-purposing the Monitor/Clear button could effect clearing out of a user accessible menu on the radio, forcing the user to wait 30 seconds for the menu mode to time-out.


The image below is the DEFAULT KEYMAP for a System model radio.

 

[kb4cvn]

Again, there really isn't such a thing as "better" but rather what meets a design objective better.

Not much difference that the whole Ford vs. Dodge vs. Chevy being better argument.


As for full disclosure:
My first purpose built 2-meter [hobby] portable was a Motorola MX-360. I have owned Micors, Motracs, Motrans, Micoms (the 70's vintage 4 channel HF version of a Motrac), and a pile of Mocom-10's on 29 MHz.

But once the technology migrated to programmable radios, GE (now Harris) was always much more user friendly in my humble opinion.

So much so, I worked professionally in Two-Way radio for 34 years, 100% of it GE and later corporate ownership. Starting as a Mobile Installer [aka: A Trunk Monkey], I closed my career as a Senior System Engineer at the factory in Lynchburg, designing and installing Project-25 Trunking Radio systems.

 

[wa8pyr]

Even then, a short jumper could be added to the Rev A cable to make it a Rev C cable.

The statement that Motorola requires you to buy a new cable for updated firmware is completely false.

Concur. I used a Jedi cable from the early days of that style radio right to the end. Still have it, too.

And the GTX-style cable that fastened on to the back of the radio, sandwiched between the radio and the battery (still have that one too).

Ditto for the Astro-series cable for the XTS1500/2500/5000 portables. Used (and still using) the same one.

The only variation on the Astro series was the XTS3000, which was kind of a hybrid Jedi/Astro kludge; it used the RIB and Jedi cable.

And if you could tell me which pins to jumper on the Rev A APX cable I will fix mine next week. I could probably figure it out but I'm lazy that way. . .

 

[wa8pyr]

I also found the programming software much better to use than Motorola's CPS, and the fact that it was much easier to transfer data/codeplugs between radio types. I was able to transfer the data from my P7100 codeplug to the P7200 codeplug with a few clicks and I was up and running within 3 mins. of making those changes.

I agree on this. Much easier to select a radio type and program a radio with Harris; one codeplug (oops, excuse me. . . "personality file") works for most radios without any problem, although I keep mobile and portable separate. I was even able to open a personality file from RPM in RPM2 without any problem.

In fact, pretty much all the manufacturers except Motorola let you do this.

However, the smallest feature difference (and I do mean small) and Motorola makes you build a completely new codeplug for the same model radio. Even with drag-and-drop it's a pain. I've expressed my displeasure about this to our Motorola reps and engineers several times, but the folks in Schaumburg aren't listening. As much as I pay for radio and system maintenance they ought to......

However, Motorola is much better with the copy-and-paste/drag-and-drop features; nobody else really has it (at least, not in a way that works well), meaning Motorola saves you a heck of a lot of typing.

 

[wa8pyr]

What I can’t figure out is why so many jurisdictions love Harris and wouldn’t dream of going with Motorola.

For the same reason Motorola fans wouldn't dream of going to Harris. It's what they have used for years and what they're used to, so they turn up their noses at anything else.

However, I've found that when grant money is buying their radios, they grudgingly accept something else. This has become especially so in recent years; with grant auditors demanding to know why a much more expensive radio from Company X was purchased instead of the well regarded, perfectly rugged and capable radio from Company Y, we've been buying more radios from other companies. Our users have found that. . . SURPRISE!! They work quite well.

So, I’m hoping and guessing that it is possible to make the top selector knob on a Xg-75p the channel selector knob instead of the System selector knob?

Our area currently uses the left and right buttons on the face of the radio to change zones on the Motorola’s we have. I’m assuming that the cps for the Harris p25 radios can do the same thing.

I also know that in one zone, we can mix trunked channels with conventional channels . I.e. atac8 and talkaround 1 (simplex conventional)

Channel select is the default for the rotary knob on top of the XG75P. But yes, you can change it.

You can make the XG75P do zones, but you have to have a pretty recent firmware version to make it happen (I think the latest is R05C04).

Once I updated my XG75P radios with R05C04, I was able to use RPM2 to program them with the same personality file that's in my XL200P portables, minus the VHF and UHF stuff, using the arrow keys on the front keypad for Zone Up and Down. Works like a charm, and saved all kinds of time building a new file, all I had to do was some minor tweaks.

Going to zones instead of systems also allows you to mix trunked and conventional in the same zone.

 

[kb4cvn]

A bit of Motorola humor

There is a good bit of "colorful" language in the below video, BUT, it sums up the feelings of numerous non-Motorola dealers in North Carolina when dealing the public safety customers on the State's VIPER system who insist on Motorola equipment to the exclusion of all else.



Radio Salesman's Nightmare (2011)

"...Satirical dialog on the public safety radio business from a salesman's perspective".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6diX9lZsU

 

[KE4ZNR]

Oh come on...you are gonna make me defend VIPER now?? :wink:

To be fair to the State of NC all of the following radios have been approved for usage on VIPER (granted this is a couple years old already):

https://files.nc.gov/ncdps/documents/files/2017%20VIPER%20Approved%20Radio%20List.pdf

The following Vendors and their respective listed Radio Model Numbers are hereby approved
for use on the VIPER system for the calendar year 2016.

Motorola – XTS/XTL 1500/2500 and 5000 series, APX 1000/4000/6000/7000/8000 series
portables and APX 1500/4500/6500/7500/8500 mobiles

EF Johnson – 51SL/53SL series,VP400/VP600/VP900/VP5400 series portables and
VM400/600/900 series mobiles.

Harris – Unity XL-200 portables, XG100P/XG100M series, XG75P/XG75M series
XG25P/XG25M and XG15 series portables.

Kenwood - TK-5410/5910 series and NX series portables and mobiles

BK-RELM – KNG-P800/M800 series.

TAIT – TP9400/TM9400 series.

For vendor specific questions, please direct inquiries to the respective vendors. For VIPER
system specific questions, please email: viper@ncshp.org.
Radio end user agencies should note that this approval letter is for approved radio use on the
Statewide VIPER radio system and does not constitute an approval of the above radios on locally
owned and operated Project 16 (P16) or Project 25 (P25) radio systems. Some radios on the
VIPER approved list may NOT be approved for use on local systems. VIPER encourages each
agency to contact a local system manager directly to ensure compatibility and local approval
prior to purchase.

I would point out the fact that Harris is included in that list and if any Non-Motorola dealers are not aware of that fact then that is their failings as a business and not the State of NC's fault.

Of course my ramblings are my opinions only and do not reflect any NC organization or specific business.

Marshall KE4ZNR

There is a good bit of "colorful" language in the below video, BUT, it sums up the feelings of numerous non-Motorola dealers in North Carolina when dealing the public safety customers on the State's VIPER system who insist on Motorola equipment to the exclusion of all else.



Radio Salesman's Nightmare (2011)

"...Satirical dialog on the public safety radio business from a salesman's perspective".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk6diX9lZsU

 

[davidzimmerman]

Here in Parma Ohio Parma has been on a Harris P-25 System a long time been problems from day 1. just last month i was told from a friend who owns a Motorola Shop Parma's looking to join the Cleveland Radio System that's a Motorola Radio System HAPPY DAYS SOON.

 

[kb4cvn]

Keep in mind, 90% of the "bad systems" out there are the result of Customer Self-Infliction.

RFP calls for 85-90% portable talkback coverage with a DAQ of 4.0 or better in the customer's city.

Manufacturers/Vendors (regardless of brand) respond to the RFP with a proposal and price quote for a system designed to meet the customer's unique requirements.

Customer selects vendor, signs the contract, but with edited changes....

For an example, instead of the engineering recommended ten(10) site radio system, the customer balks at the price, and trims the sites down to six(6). The vendor reluctantly agrees, but have the customer sign a waver they they will build-out the system with the customer's mandated changes, which were solely for economic reasons, and may not achieve the required coverage specifications in the original RFP.

System is built-out per the customer's revised spec's, and coverage is far short from desired... IE: It sucks.

Users, Police & Fire Unions, and the News Media all raise hell.


Who gets the blame? The Manufacturer and/or Vendor!


Seen it happen several dozen times over the past 35 years.
People holding the purse-strings on the budget money make uninformed decisions, and are not held responsible for their bad judgement.