Why no mid-tier offerings?

[human8472]

Why do you need FPP? In most cases it doesn't work how you think it will work, and is strictly prohibited on Part 90. Unless you have an amateur license, you really don't need it. I have it on a few radios, but I've used it only about 3 times total. Most of the time you just need MPL/OST to change a tone, not frequency.

I have had it on my Motorola APX, and it has come in very useful at times. I usually use a Mac for my main computer, so I have been able to create all my channels and zones from the keypad without having to use Motorola's software. Also, there are times when I might head to a mutual aid call to a neighboring town/city, and I have been able to program in their frequency and CTCSS on the way. Lastly, I am a HAM operator, and I would like to use the radio for that as well.

 

[mmckenna]

I was looking at the TAIT 9900 for which I got a quote of about $4,200. That is for P25/DMR/Analog and VHF/UHF/700/800/900 MHz. Even with that, FPP is not a certainty yet (rumored to be coming, but just that, a rumor). This is about the cheapest I have found for anything that includes DMR.

I think Tait is one of the less costly options at this point. I trialed the 9800 for a while and liked it.

But, seriously, you need to consider what you -really- need. It's nice to have "one with everything", but that gets expensive. Maybe keep the hobby and work stuff separate. If all your need is VHF and UHF then just get that. You can always add more features later.

And, yes, the FPP thing is supposed to be restricted to federal users. Part 90 forbids the end user from having the ability to change some settings from the controls. Not everyone abides by this, but often it's cheaper to just get the software/cable and make changes as needed. With these radios having so much channel capacity, there's really no reason to not program in all the stuff you are legally allowed to use ahead of time.

 

[mmckenna]

Lastly, I am a HAM operator, and I would like to use the radio for that as well.

I think that's going to be an issue, if you are paying for all this on your own.

I get it. I like the radio I have. But maybe keeping work and hobby separate will help.

You usually can't use these radios on 900MHz ham, and 900MHz LMR is getting rare in some areas. And unless you really do have 700 and 800MHz systems that you legally have access to, there's another cost savings.

Unfortunately this is an expensive play ground, and there's no good, cheap options other than buying used.

 

[DeoVindice]

Just my uneducated opinion, but once R&D is over and a radio like an APX is in production I can't see how it costs more than a couple hundred $$ or less to manufacture. These radios are made offshore with the equivalent of child labor. Yes the quality and performance is way beyond a typical CCR but $11k? F me. No, F them!

As a general rule, flat-rate Depot pricing is pretty close to Motorola's internal cost to build a given radio. I assume other manufacturers will use a similar price structure.

Like mmkenna said, a pair of NX-5000s is likely to be the best way to accomplish this. I've heard that new P25 entitlements may not be available for the NX-5000 line for much longer, as JVCKenwood is working to consolidate P25 into the Viking (EFJ) line. Going with lower-tier single-band equipment will shave quite a bit off purchase price, unfortunately single-band multiprotocol is really nonexistent. It would really help if you could lay out specific band/protocol requirements instead of all-band/all-mode - maybe your needs can be met inside your budget with multiple radios.

In my experience, FPP is better on paper than in practice. I've used it a total of one time after fat-fingering a ham repeater input frequency. You're better off creating a large codeplug with numerous zones covering all eventualities. MS1, dynamic zone, and Viking home-press-and-hold make codeplugs like that easier to manage for the end user (you).

There's nothing wrong with buying used if you shop the seller and learn enough about the equipment to ask the right questions. I bought my VP5230 from MTS2000DES, doesn't get much more reputable than that.

 

[human8472]

I get it. I like the radio I have. But maybe keeping work and hobby separate will help.

I expect you may be right. I have been keeping the two portables separate (HAM and work). However, with some agencies moving to DMR, I wanted my "work" radio to be able to do DMR as well as P25 and Analog. The FPP for me is a requirement because all CPS software seems to require Windows, and I have no interest in using a Windows computer, especially for just programming a radio. The BKR9000 seems to embrace this, as from what I have read, everything can be programmed from the Front Panel. Unfortunately, the BKR9000 does not have DMR.

So it seems like there is no perfect radio that can do it all. The search continues ....

 

[prcguy]

As a general rule, flat-rate Depot pricing is pretty close to Motorola's internal cost to build a given radio. I assume other manufacturers will use a similar price structure.

I think your completely out of touch on pricing and Motorola would be quickly out of business if they sold radios for what it cost them to make. They are making sh*t loads of $$ off every radio even at their most discounted pricing. In the 1970s I was privy to radio manufacturing costs when working at one of the largest radio mfrs in the world at the time and the formula to stay in business was the wholesale price of the radio out the factory door was at least 4X what it cost to produce including parts, labor, overhead, space rent, lights, power, etc. Below that number you do not have a sustainable business and that was for a US made radios. Offshore costs are much cheaper giving way more profit margin. Look at most any other super high end electronics that is manufactured off shore and has a similar build quantity to Motorola radios. You get big technology, big quality, reasonable price unless its a super small production run that doesn't pay for R&D. There are so many things out there that are much more complex mechanically and electrically that cost a fraction of what Motorola charges for their stuff.

Sure Motorola has a ton of $$ invested in research, development, software, etc, and they need to recoup their investments but the APX or any prior series of radio is not just a run of 500 units and their done. Between roughly 2010 and 2015 Motorola reported selling 1 million APX radios and that was 10yrs ago. How many have they sold to date? Maybe several million more?? But does the price drop due to the huge number manufactured? No, they keep cranking it up every year even though their R&D costs and other investments have long been paid off and its probably way cheaper to produce the radio today.

So you get a little box of parts with an antenna that works pretty good but made on aging assembly lines by people making way less than your teenage babysitter and they want eleven thousand dollars for it? If that's not ludicris I don't know what is.

 

[ladn]

Just my uneducated opinion, but once R&D is over and a radio like an APX is in production I can't see how it costs more than a couple hundred $$ or less to manufacture. These radios are made offshore with the equivalent of child labor. Yes the quality and performance is way beyond a typical CCR but $11k? F me. No, F them!

Gotta add in the cost of all that glossy paper advertising and $1k lunches for the client bosses, plus subsidizing hooker VIP getaways.

 

[mmckenna]

So it seems like there is no perfect radio that can do it all. The search continues ....

There is, it's just out of your price range at the moment. VP-8000 would be a good option.

If you scale it back to just what you need, you may be able to bring the price down to a more manageable level.

You should skip the encryption. Any public safety agency that knows what they are doing will not load encryption keys into a privately owned radio. That goes against a number of requirements.

Unless you have access to a trunked radio system, there's no need to have that feature added. These won't do NAS, so that's off the table. Most system admins are not going to add a private radio to their system.

Unless 7/800MHz are used by one of the agencies you work for, you can drop that.

Sounds like you need a radio that does VHF and UHF with the P25 conventional and DMR modes. Analog is standard.

Ask around with the agencies you work with, find out who uses Kenwood or EF Johnson products, talk to their vendor and see if they'll cut you a deal.

On most of these newer radios, features can be added later if your needs change. You don't have to buy it all at once.

I expect you may be right. I have been keeping the two portables separate (HAM and work). However, with some agencies moving to DMR, I wanted my "work" radio to be able to do DMR as well as P25 and Analog. The FPP for me is a requirement because all CPS software seems to require Windows, and I have no interest in using a Windows computer, especially for just programming a radio. The BKR9000 seems to embrace this, as from what I have read, everything can be programmed from the Front Panel. Unfortunately, the BKR9000 does not have DMR.

Keeping the hobby and work separate will make this cheaper.

You are going to need programming software and cable to set up the radio features, you can't do that from the front panel.
I get the Mac/PC thing. Work lets me choose and I've had Mac for years. But for radio programming, I have a PC laptop. Maybe find yourself one of the many used Panasonic Toughbooks on e-Bay.

Not sure I'd go with BK until that radio has been on the market a bit longer. They had some challenges rolling that out and I think I'd give them some time to prove themselves before buying into that.

If was doing what you were doing, I'd go with either the VP8000 or the Tait 9900. Those are the only real options if you want multiband and DMR.

Or, get a Kenwood NX-5200 for VHF and an NX-5300 for UHF and be done. Do you -really- need VHF and UHF at the same time?

 

[DeoVindice]

I think your completely out of touch on pricing and Motorola would be quickly out of business if they sold radios for what it cost them to make.

You misunderstood what I meant by flat-rate Depot pricing. That's the cost for the Motorola depot to repair a radio damaged in service. It's set that way so that the depot can essentially replace the radio without losing money, and should give you a good idea of labor/materials cost to build a particular unit. That generally will not include development/marketing/support costs.

 

[prcguy]

You misunderstood what I meant by flat-rate Depot pricing. That's the cost for the Motorola depot to repair a radio damaged in service. It's set that way so that the depot can essentially replace the radio without losing money, and should give you a good idea of labor/materials cost to build a particular unit. That generally will not include development/marketing/support costs.

Ok, I don't disagree with that.

 

[KevinC]

How about we get back to the original topic and stop all the MSI bashing.

I believe some of you could be discussing baseball and find a way to beat up Motorola.

 

[human8472]

There is, it's just out of your price range at the moment. VP-8000 would be a good option.

You make a good point. Looks like a great radio but out of my current range.

If was doing what you were doing, I'd go with either the VP8000 or the Tait 9900. Those are the only real options if you want multiband and DMR.

Thanks for those suggestions.

Or, get a Kenwood NX-5200 for VHF and an NX-5300 for UHF and be done. Do you -really- need VHF and UHF at the same time?

Do both the NX-5200 and NX-5300 do DMR? If so, I was not aware.

 

[DeoVindice]

You make a good point. Looks like a great radio but out of my current range.

Thanks for those suggestions.

Do both the NX-5200 and NX-5300 do DMR? If so, I was not aware.

Yes. They are capable of NXDN, DMR, and P25, but a given codeplug can only include two digital protocols at once plus analog.

 

[mmckenna]

You make a good point. Looks like a great radio but out of my current range.

Thanks for those suggestions.

Do both the NX-5200 and NX-5300 do DMR? If so, I was not aware.

They have since released.

Sounds like a single multiband portable is not within the current budget. If you need a new radio for your job, you'd probably be best served by looking at what the agencies you work with have. That way you can have them program the radio for you, and you won't need to buy a PC, programming software and cable.

If you want to go it on your own, give us some more details about what you modes you need (P25, DMR, etc) and on which bands. We may be able to make some suggestions.

 

[AM909]

As regards Kenwood:

The problem with separate NX-5200 and 5300 is that you could end up paying twice for DMR ($$) or P25 ($$$$), since those entitlements are per-radio. [add] For LE, encryption hardware usually adds $$$$ and background check, if even available.

I'm going to guess that fully-packed Tait at $4K was a reasonable discount from retail.

FPP may/should be difficult to obtain. I tried to use it on my VP8K the other day for a DMR channel and found it doesn't do FPP on a DMR channel. I'm not running the most recent firmware, though.

To get a trunked system programmed in the radio generally will require programming by the system operator/maintainer, who has to have the cable, software, and system key for your radio.

 

[chanjyj]

If you drop your FPP requirement, and with some scanning caveats, the Tait TP9900 is a fantastic top tier radio for a mid tier price