2 way scanners?

[trainwreck100]

Well, as long as we're getting technical here: our SO operates on 155.8050. (our town cop dispatches through them too) That's VHF high band, it crosses to a lot of other people. Usually during harvest some fo the custom cutters that come through work on 155.8050 too, so they cross transmissiions with the SO and our town cop. Usually there's some on 155.9400 also, that's our ambulance service, and 154.13 is the state fire mutual aid channel, so there is nearly always a custom cutter on public service channels around here during harvest. When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric ompany here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?

 

[N_Jay]

Well, as long as we're getting technical here: our SO operates on 155.8050. (our town cop dispatches through them too) That's VHF high band, it crosses to a lot of other people. Usually during harvest some fo the custom cutters that come through work on 155.8050 too, so they cross transmissiions with the SO and our town cop. Usually there's some on 155.9400 also, that's our ambulance service, and 154.13 is the state fire mutual aid channel, so there is nearly always a custom cutter on public service channels around here during harvest. When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric ompany here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?

I would bet that some of these "licensed" people are operating OUTSIDE the area of their license, and are therefor UNLICENSED!

 

[Voyager]

My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?

In addition to using a frequency you are licensed for and authorized to use, you must also be using equipment APPROVED by the FCC to operate there. So, yes, there is something wrong other than the license (for which NJ covered the other aspect of well). Most licennses are not nationwide.

Joe M.

 

[trainwreck100]

Some public service agencies cross out here. Tuttle PD operates on 155.9350, and Parkview Hospital operates on 155.94. They are constantly on each others radios. We also pick up other people on our 151.775 farm license all the time. It's almost always the same people, they are from Okarche which is about 14 miles away from home, and I think they are also using the Motorola MaxTrac radios, because we can pick them up on our farm about 35 miles from Okarche (using channel guard). The FCC definitely let those licenses be way too close together. We also pick up Wal-Mart's system on 151.775. They are only about 20 miles away from us. Looks to me like location doesn't matter a whole lot on licensing.

I know these posts sound bad, but I'm really just trying to make a point that this could be why it was TX-ing on the police frequency.

Greg

 

[N_Jay]

Tuttle PD operates on 155.9350, . . .

There are no licenses on 155.9350

Also remember, most frequencies are SHARED.

 

[scanfan03]

Some public service agencies cross out here. Tuttle PD operates on 155.9350, and Parkview Hospital operates on 155.94. They are constantly on each others radios. We also pick up other people on our 151.775 farm license all the time. It's almost always the same people, they are from Okarche which is about 14 miles away from home, and I think they are also using the Motorola MaxTrac radios, because we can pick them up on our farm about 35 miles from Okarche (using channel guard). The FCC definitely let those licenses be way too close together. We also pick up Wal-Mart's system on 151.775. They are only about 20 miles away from us. Looks to me like location doesn't matter a whole lot on licensing.

I know these posts sound bad, but I'm really just trying to make a point that this could be why it was TX-ing on the police frequency.

Greg

You won't hear those other people IF you can turn off mic hang. You probably only hear them when you take the mic off of the properly grounded mic hanger.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi djeplet and all,

First of all, nobody is "jumping all over" your post, we're simply expounding on it. Several posts are rather vague and easily misinterpreted, I for one am explaining in explicit terms such as this.

""Proper permission" or not, you cannot legally use a ham HT on the Public Safety bands with the single exception of summoning help for an emergency of life or property being in imminent danger. There is an exemption in Part 97 (the FCC's ham rules) that says (paraphrased) nothing in the rules shall prohibit a ham from using ANY frequency at his disposal to summon help in (such a case). But use at any other time on the PS bands is always illegal - period."

You forgot to include the phrase "when no other means of communications is possible". A ham may transmit on ANY frequency when life and/or property is in immenent danger and no other means of communications is POSSIBLE. I must emphasise that, such circumstances are extremely rare and any such circumstances will be thoroughly investigated. I don't suppose you really have to be a ham since on several occasions a citizen has used a police radio to report a fallen officer unable to respond and no action was taken against him.

BTW, most but not all modern ham tranceivers already cover CAP and MARS frequencies and need no modification. Then of course like the man said one needs membership and certification to use them and then only in the performance of his/her duties.

Remember the FREE KEVIN bumper stickers? Yeah, loose lips sink ships, it's not NICE to fool mother nature, I need a gob stopper, (stolen popular phrases) or in simple terms, the tongue makes a good shovel for digging one's own grave. If you're going to brag about "crimes", at least wait until the statute of limitations runs out.

 

[kb2vxa]

Addendum:

"Most licennses are not nationwide."

HUH? Certain (federal) licenses (Amateur, marine, aviation, etc.) held by an individual, group, agency or organization is good anywhere in the US, territories and posessions or worldwide unless limits or restrictions apply. In such cases they are printed on the license certificate. Those who operate nationwide, that is move from place to place hold licenses to operate on itinerant frequencies. A fixed station is listed to it's geographical coordinates and has the number of mobiles and portables (if any) listed on the license.

One must be specific to avoid confusion, such generalities are false and misleading.

 

[Voyager]

Addendum:

"Most licennses are not nationwide."

HUH? Certain (federal) licenses (Amateur, marine, aviation, etc.) <snip>
One must be specific to avoid confusion, such generalities are false and misleading.

I repeat: MOST licenses are not nationwide. My reply was in response to a post about BUSINESSES and PS frequencies where aid was being rendering to areas other than their own. Here is the original passage:

"When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric ompany here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?"

As you can see, they are not using Federal, Amateur, Marine, or aviation frequencies. That's the problem when you take something out of context and twist it around to mean something other than what it means. Yes, there are some business and PS nationwide licenses, but the vast majority of those licenses are NOT nationwide. They are good for a radius around a point, a specific geographic area, or sometimes an entire state. That means when you go outside the licensed area, you are operating unlicensed since most of those licenses are not nationwide.

Joe M.

 

[kb2vxa]

Argumentative aren't we? I'm outa here!

 

[N_Jay]

Argumentative aren't we? I'm outa here!

Na, just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.

 

[Voyager]

Argumentative aren't we? I'm outa here!

I apologize. I get that way sometimes when people start implying that PS agencies and businesses can use Amateur, Marine, or Aviation frequencies for their routine communications and can use them nationwide because those licenses are nationwide (for the most part). Although, I like the way NJ worded it, too.

The thread was not misleading until those other services were thrown into the mix as a means to argue that my statement was not correct. Now, who was it who did that? You were the one to throw those other services into the conversation causing the misleading path, and then accuse me of being false and misleading after that change in scope. You can't change the question once the answer is given, then argue that the answer was incorrect.

Joe M.

 

[BryanTheRed]

I would think that the companies comming in for aid during the aftermath of a natural disaster/ occurence would be exempt when rendering aid to the inflicted area. Also I have a question, if a PS agency happens to buy an out of band HAM reciever and use it for PS is that illegal? Or is it a matter of WHO owns the radio??

 

[nd5y]

It doesn't make any difference who owns it. If it operates on a private land mobile service frequency it has to be certified.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ccess.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr90.203.htm

 

[N_Jay]

I would think that the companies comming in for aid during the aftermath of a natural disaster/ occurence would be exempt when rendering aid to the inflicted area. Also I have a question, if a PS agency happens to buy an out of band HAM reciever and use it for PS is that illegal? Or is it a matter of WHO owns the radio??

Receivers are not the issue, TRANSMITTERS are! :wink:

It has to do with the service (The frequency) it is used on.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi again,

Initially I decided not to post again but after reading Voyager's apology (accepted, thanx) I reconsidered. Never mind guys, it looks like it was just another misunderstanding caused by me in part at least, I tend to speak and write in generalities to conserve space (;->) when sometimes things must be separated by class and category. We seem to be confusing the area which a license covers (I never saw any such restrictions on their licenses posted on the wall of the transmitter shack, only the coordinates of the transmitter) with the area in which it's used. In other words, you won't find any LAPD radios in use in New York but that's not to say they CAN'T be used there, OK?

If you really want to argue this please contact Chris Imlay Esq. c/o the ARRL and ask him, a qualified communications lawyer with a practice in the DC area. (;->)

Now here's what baffles me:
When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric ompany here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?"

I have never seen power companiy licensees' frequency listings contain public service frequencies. If you look through an old copy of Police Call you'll see what I mean, those lists were taken directly from the FCC database. I'm not arguing mind you, just confused by your statement Voyager.

Right NJ, receivers aren't licensed but they ARE type accepted. Do you know WHY? C'mon guy, I'm having a bit of chain yanking fun, wanna bite? I sure hope so, the rest of them could use a bit of education, the answer will likely surprise some.

Now just to wrap this up, there is the exception which falls under the LEGAL class of unlicensed operation. Low power portables need not be licensed and are often used on frequencies not listed on the station license. Police love these "secret" channels since they appear nowhere in the FCC database or any PUBLIC scanner databases or publications. Please note the word is emphasized, public databases and publications may include some well known names like Monitoring Times for example, their editors like to avoid legal entanglements BUT various contributors and authors who publish in the mag also privately publish literature not connected with MT. (I have known two of them more or less personally.) THERE'S where you'll find all sorts of data gathered privately from contributors, officials HATE these guys. (;->) I wish that could be only half a grin, one of those I happen to know was a major factor that led to the bane of scanner enthusiasts everywhere, digital encryption.

One final note, unlicenced operation has in several cases been illegal. One recent case involved an itinerant film production company transmitting on NYPD frequencies IN NEW YORK! (DUH) All goes well until something draws the attention of the FCC and we all know what happens then.

 

[N_Jay]

Hi again,

Initially I decided not to post again but after reading Voyager's apology (accepted, thanx) I reconsidered. Never mind guys, it looks like it was just another misunderstanding caused by me in part at least, I tend to speak and write in generalities to conserve space (;->) when sometimes things must be separated by class and category.

Yep,

We seem to be confusing the area which a license covers (I never saw any such restrictions on their licenses posted on the wall of the transmitter shack, only the coordinates of the transmitter) with the area in which it's used. In other words, you won't find any LAPD radios in use in New York but that's not to say they CAN'T be used there, OK?

If you really want to argue this please contact Chris Imlay Esq. c/o the ARRL and ask him, a qualified communications lawyer with a practice in the DC area. (;->)

I don’t have to. I fill out 601s all the time and you most certainly do license the operating area of the mobile equipment.
Go to the FCC site and download the form 601 and all the appendix forms and schedules (Its like a tax form) Ever form has instructions attached. Reading them is an education.

Now here's what baffles me:
When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric company here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong with being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?"

Yes there is, as they are NOT licensed to operate on that frequency IN THAT AREA. Back to the area of operation they filled out on there license application. (See form 601 discussion above.)

I have never seen power company licensees' frequency listings contain public service frequencies. If you look through an old copy of Police Call you'll see what I mean, those lists were taken directly from the FCC database. I'm not arguing mind you, just confused by your statement Voyager.

The radio services used to have their own frequency pools that were coordinated independently. That is why you very rarely see a utility on a police or fire channel. With the shortage of frequencies there has been more pooling of services (i.e. all public safety is now one pool instead of separate pools for police, fire, ems, etc.). In addition many agencies have applied for and received waivers to use frequencies from other pools. So now you will see public safety and other services sharing frequencies. Again, the will be is separated area, per the operational area of their license (See form 601 discussion above.)

Right NJ, receivers aren't licensed but they ARE type accepted. Do you know WHY? C'mon guy, I'm having a bit of chain yanking fun, wanna bite? I sure hope so, the rest of them could use a bit of education, the answer will likely surprise some.

Receivers are type accepted for compliance with Part 15 as Unintentional Radiators of RF energy. It has NOTHING to do with what service they are approved for, or used for or owned by, or used by!. A commercial receiver, a ham receiver, and scanner, an AM/FM radio, a TV, and even your GPS and computer all have to pass the same specifications.

Now just to wrap this up, there is the exception which falls under the LEGAL class of unlicensed operation. Low power portables need not be licensed and are often used on frequencies not listed on the station license. Police love these "secret" channels since they appear nowhere in the FCC database or any PUBLIC scanner databases or publications. Please note the word is emphasized, public databases and publications may include some well known names like Monitoring Times for example, their editors like to avoid legal entanglements BUT various contributors and authors who publish in the mag also privately publish literature not connected with MT. (I have known two of them more or less personally.) THERE'S where you'll find all sorts of data gathered privately from contributors, officials HATE these guys. (;->) I wish that could be only half a grin, one of those I happen to know was a major factor that led to the bane of scanner enthusiasts everywhere, digital encryption.

This exception is for surveillance ONLY, and is for things like body wires. Many PDs do not understand that and it is often used to justify illegal operation. The FCC is not very aggressive with PDs (as it would look bad, my assumption) but it is just as illegal as any other unlicensed operation.

One final note, unlicenced operation has in several cases been illegal. One recent case involved an itinerant film production company transmitting on NYPD frequencies IN NEW YORK! (DUH) All goes well until something draws the attention of the FCC and we all know what happens then.

One final clarification; UNLICENSED operation is almost always ILLEGAL. Prosecution is few and far between. It never draws the attention of the FCC, it always requires a complaint by the licensee receiving interference. The FCC has definitely (my opinion) had a recent up tick in their attention to these types of complaints.

 

[Voyager]

Now here's what baffles me:
When we had the ice storm that took 15000 poles out of our cooperative two years ago, Pole trucks came in from across the nation (about 5 other cooperatives and the big electric ompany here lost poles too) anyway, some of those pole companies worked on public service frequencies too. My point is there's nothing wrong wiht being able to transmit on some of these frequencies, if the FCC licenses you to is there?"

I have never seen power companiy licensees' frequency listings contain public service frequencies. If you look through an old copy of Police Call you'll see what I mean, those lists were taken directly from the FCC database. I'm not arguing mind you, just confused by your statement Voyager.

NJ covered most of the relavent replies. I will add one, though. You may be confused because that was not my statement - it was one that I replied to with my comment that their licenses are most likely not nationwide. I stand by that statement. Most PS and Land Mobile licenses are NOT nationwide. That means they have an area for which they are licensed. If they go to another area for which they are not licensed, guess what? That is UNLICENSED operation - just as if they had no license at all. If you are licensed for a 5 mile radius around Anytown USA, and you are 6 miles from town and transmitting, you are EXCEEDING the authority granted by your license.

I wasn't and will not debate the point as to whether or not they had a license on a PS frequency. That is possible, and I have seen businesses with licenses on PS frequencies. So, I just took that statement as a given. Really, it isn't relevent which service they were on since my reply equally applies to both.

Joe M.

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi all,

Well, looks like we cleared up that mess once and for all. Yes, the frequency pools are half polluted (;->) and one good example is an ambulance service in NY operating in the railroad pool. Then too last year I heard fishing boats on those frequencies, clearly illegal out of band operation. They were also on USCG freqs, that is until they fired a shot across the bow. Oh, did I tell you they were out of Brooklyn? (;->) Speaking of such, I forgot the exact vessel specifications that require licensing, but the average pleasure craft doesn't require one. It gets complicated, I think I'll call Chris. (;->)

Originally Posted by kb2vxa
Right NJ, receivers aren't licensed but they ARE type accepted. Do you know WHY? C'mon guy, I'm having a bit of chain yanking fun, wanna bite? I sure hope so, the rest of them could use a bit of education, the answer will likely surprise some.

N Jay:
"Receivers are type accepted for compliance with Part 15 as Unintentional Radiators of RF energy. It has NOTHING to do with what service they are approved for, or used for or owned by, or used by!. A commercial receiver, a ham receiver, and scanner, an AM/FM radio, a TV, and even your GPS and computer all have to pass the same specifications."

YUP, spot on! Just to add to your already verbose reply (;->) under Part 15 such devices must accept all interference but not radiate any. Just try to explain that to a neighbor with a touch control lamp killing your reception while your transmissions make it go nuts. I ran into that situation and the windup was like the lyrics to an old song, "I fought the FCC and the FCC won". Before type acceptance (I still can't remember the new term) some receivers radiated some horrible mess, I once had a shortwave receiver that above a certain frequency clobbered TV channel 2 all over the neighborhood. I couldn't listen there at night when CBS was king. BTW, most TV manufacturers don't give a hoot, my HF reception is STILL clobbered by H sync birdies.

Now I'm off to explain to someone there is no point in connecting a scanner to cable TV feed. Th' de de de de.... that's all folks!